The Economy of Madness - Game Complete!

[Infected_alien8_]

Not directly, but your 'Alisha would of gone out of her way to prevent massclaiming from being powerful' seems to imply it especially considering RID was brought up as an excuse to maybe not massclaim.

Well then you're misinterpreting me. My 'Alisha would've gone out of her way to prevent massclaiming from being powerful' was to say the benefits we could get from massclaiming could be reduced, and therefore might not outweigh the drawbacks (which I clarify to mean that we lose our PRs, and by that I mean things like investigatives or protection roles)

Fair enough, the RID excuse is trash which you haven't contributed to directly but feels heavily implied nontheless.

Alright well I didn't mean to imply that I was using that as my reason for doubting massclaiming being a good idea

It is though, every other place you've danced around it by saying it outs PR's/abilities like in the post above but you've never explicitly mentioned you fear our investigative roles dying. I get that you probably mean the same but I just saw the argument for investigative roles dying and didn't remember someone explicitly saying this before.

It's not though, and I've not danced around it. Saying I'm worried about outing our PRs is because I'm worried the useful ones would die. What else could that even mean? But I guess you seem to understand where I'm coming from by the end of this paragraph

The part where a massclaim gives us a ton of information to get reads of and you're waving it away like it means nothing and we can easely do without it.

I never waved it away like it means nothing. I've said several times it could be worth it. I get the potential benefits from it. But there are also drawbacks and I'd only want to do it if I thought it was likely that the benefits outweighed the drawbacks obviously. And I think we can do without it, we've won plenty of games before without a massclaim and I don't get why you're so desperate to have one.

Clearly you are scared about PR's dying which means you think we won't be able to win with reads and vibes. (and ofcourse the info from all the PR's that don't die).

Being scared about PRs dying doesn't mean I think we won't be able to win with reads and vibes? I think we can win with just reads and vibes but having PRs to help us out is obviously a bonus as well.

The benefit is full transparency/information, forcing the Mafia to make fake claims and aside from getting reads off of that having our PR's act with that information for atleast a single night, unless you think they're all going to just die n1.

I'm not saying there are no benefits, I'm saying the drawbacks are at least fairly likely imo to outweigh the benefits. If you think giving our PRs at least one night with a full massclaim would give us benefits that outweigh the scenario where we keep them alive for potentially several days without a massclaim then fair enough. I'm not convinced though.

And once again I'm not completely opposed to a massclaim. I've said it several times but I'm fine with doing it if the majority wants to. What's now making me reconsider though is your aggression/assertiveness pushing for it. Why are you so insistent on massclaiming? We've played so many games without it and won, why do you want to do it so badly now? I don't get it

 

[Enderfive]

wtf

massclaiming is a terrible idea

 

[Nottykitten]

I never waved it away like it means nothing. I've said several times it could be worth it. I get the potential benefits from it. But there are also drawbacks and I'd only want to do it if I thought it was likely that the benefits outweighed the drawbacks obviously. And I think we can do without it, we've won plenty of games before without a massclaim and I don't get why you're so desperate to have one.

I mean you waved ita away in that very quote I was responding to. Point me out one game where mass-claiming hurt the town. I believe the benefits will far outweigh some of our PR's dying a tad earlier.

Being scared about PRs dying doesn't mean I think we won't be able to win with reads and vibes? I think we can win with just reads and vibes but having PRs to help us out is obviously a bonus as well.

If you think we can win without then let's go massclaim! Be confident in your reads Inf!

wtf

massclaiming is a terrible idea

Lies and slander

 

[Infected_alien8_]

I mean you waved ita away in that very quote I was responding to. Point me out one game where mass-claiming hurt the town. I believe the benefits will far outweigh some of our PR's dying a tad earlier.

How is:

Where have I ignored how much reads and vibes of players can bring to the table? What has that got to go with whether I support massclaiming? Can I not make reads and vibes without a massclaim? Is a massclaim garunteed to get us reads and vibes or is it just about getting everyone's claims which may or may not all be believable?

Waving it away? I'm saying massclaiming =/= valuing reads and vibes, because mass-claims aren't 'guarnteed' to get us reads, so acting like declining a massclaim is denying us of reads (which is what I gathered you were implying by saying it means I'm ignoring them) doesn't make much sense to me.

Point me out one game where mass-claiming hurt the town.

I can only think of one game where we did massclaim day 0, and that was since it was an open setup that had like 4 protection roles that could all layer on top of each other and protect the cop so we easily won. So just by seeing we did well in that game when we massclaimed day 0 doesn't convince me we'll do well in this one.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

How is:

Where have I ignored how much reads and vibes of players can bring to the table? What has that got to go with whether I support massclaiming? Can I not make reads and vibes without a massclaim? Is a massclaim garunteed to get us reads and vibes or is it just about getting everyone's claims which may or may not all be believable?

Waving it away? I'm saying massclaiming =/= valuing reads and vibes, because mass-claims aren't 'guarnteed' to get us reads, so acting like declining a massclaim is denying us of reads (which is what I gathered you were implying by saying it means I'm ignoring them) doesn't make much sense to me.


I can only think of one game where we did massclaim day 0, and that was since it was an open setup that had like 4 protection roles that could all layer on top of each other and protect the cop so we easily won. So just by seeing we did well in that game when we massclaimed day 0 doesn't convince me we'll do well in this one.

woops the formatting lied to me and the box broke when I posted it so here have it in italics!

 

[Infected_alien8_]

How is:

Where have I ignored how much reads and vibes of players can bring to the table? What has that got to go with whether I support massclaiming? Can I not make reads and vibes without a massclaim? Is a massclaim garunteed to get us reads and vibes or is it just about getting everyone's claims which may or may not all be believable?

Waving it away? I'm saying massclaiming =/= valuing reads and vibes, because mass-claims aren't 'guarnteed' to get us reads, so acting like declining a massclaim is denying us of reads (which is what I gathered you were implying by saying it means I'm ignoring them) doesn't make much sense to me.

(I guess you could say that denying us of the possibility of getting reads is ignoring reads but I'd still disagree since there are risks with massclaiming so it's just a decision of whether the possibility of good reads outweighs the possibility of drawbacks, and deciding massclaiming is too risky doesn't mean I'm 'ignoring' reads it just means I'm not confident the reads will be worth the drawbacks that could happen)

 

[Nottykitten]

How is:

Where have I ignored how much reads and vibes of players can bring to the table? What has that got to go with whether I support massclaiming? Can I not make reads and vibes without a massclaim? Is a massclaim garunteed to get us reads and vibes or is it just about getting everyone's claims which may or may not all be believable?

Waving it away?

Since you're claiming massclaims won't give us reads which is 100% false aka you're ignoring the reads/vibes we get from a massclaim.

I'm saying massclaiming =/= valuing reads and vibes, because mass-claims aren't 'guarnteed' to get us reads, so acting like declining a massclaim is denying us of reads (which is what I gathered you were implying by saying it means I'm ignoring them) doesn't make much sense to me.

Thats where you're wrong since information and role claims = reads & vibes. Hell you got 'reads & vibesTM' from the list of players so don't pretend like there is even a 1% chance that getting a ton of info won't result in reads & vibes.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

it just means I'm not confident the reads will be worth the drawbacks)

(as in the quality of them or even the likely existence of them)

 

[Nottykitten]

(as in the quality of them or even the likely existence of them)

Their quality will depend on how good our players are then won't they

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Since you're claiming massclaims won't give us reads which is 100% false aka you're ignoring the reads/vibes we get from a massclaim.

Quote me claiming massclaims won't give us reads then. Because I've never said that. I've said they're not guaranteed to, which they aren't. Although, I should probably say 'they're not garunteed to give us good reads that outweigh the risks' since I do agree they're extremely extremely likely to at least give us some small reads for example the timing of the claims, even if all of the claims are believable. But if all of them are believable then I don't predict we'll get much.

Thats where you're wrong since information and role claims = reads & vibes. Hell you got 'reads & vibesTM' from the list of players so don't pretend like there is even a 1% chance that getting a ton of info won't result in reads & vibes.

They'd probably get us at least some small ones, but if everyone's claims are believable then that could easily be it. Meaning they aren't worth it, which doesn't mean I'm ignoring the value of reads

 

[Nottykitten]

Quote me claiming massclaims won't give us reads then. Because I've never said that. I've said they're not guaranteed to, which they aren't.

???? It's right there in your third sentence in this quote

 

[Infected_alien8_]

???? It's right there in your third sentence in this quote

'not guaranteed to' doesn't mean they 'won't'

 

[Nottykitten]

'not guaranteed to' doesn't mean they 'won't'

It literally means you think there is a chance they won't and you're using that chance as an argument for massclaiming not having good benefits

 

[Infected_alien8_]

It literally means you think there is a chance they won't and you're using that chance as an argument for massclaiming not having good benefits

Yes. That's not the same as saying they 'won't' give us reads. And although like I said:

Although, I should probably say 'they're not garunteed to give us good reads that outweigh the risks' since I do agree they're extremely extremely likely to at least give us some small reads for example the timing of the claims, even if all of the claims are believable. But if all of them are believable then I don't predict we'll get much.

 

[Nottykitten]

Yes. That's not the same as saying they 'won't' give us reads. And although like I said:

It is when you're using 'not guaranteed' as an argument against massclaiming since you're using the 'they won't give us reads' part as a drawback that doesn't even exist.

They'd probably get us at least some small ones, but if everyone's claims are believable then that could easily be it. Meaning they aren't worth it, which doesn't mean I'm ignoring the value of reads

I guess you're just not as confident in being able to get good reads off of people as I am then.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

It is when you're using 'not guaranteed' as an argument against massclaiming since you're using the 'they won't give us reads' part as a drawback that doesn't even exist.

'It won't happen' = there's 0% chance of it happening

'It's not guaranteed to happen' = there's not 100% chance of it happening

By you saying I'm saying 'it won't happen' I thought you meant I was saying it definitely wouldn't. But if your point is that the fact I'm even considering that it won't get us reads is wrong because it 100% will get *something* from it, then like I've said twice in the last couple posts, I agree with you that it's extremely extremely likely (as in like 99.99999%) we'd get at least something from it even if it's not that great, and I should re-phrase my point to 'it's not guaranteed to get us good reads that outweigh the drawbacks of massclaiming' since I agree arguing it might not get us anything at all is silly, and that ^ drawback does exist. We can get reads without massclaiming, so saying 'if it could get us some reads it doesn't matter what the drawbacks are, it's a good idea because we need reads to win' doesn't make sense since we don't need to massclaim to get reads. (Not sure if this is what you're saying or not but just in case)

I guess you're just not as confident in being able to get good reads off of people as I am then.

I'm confident we can get good reads off people without a massclaim. Why aren't you?

 

[Infected_alien8_]

It is when you're using 'not guaranteed' as an argument against massclaiming since you're using the 'they won't give us reads' part as a drawback that doesn't even exist.

'It won't happen' = there's 0% chance of it happening

'It's not guaranteed to happen' = there's not 100% chance of it happening

By you saying I'm saying 'it won't happen' I thought you meant I was saying it definitely wouldn't. But if your point is that the fact I'm even considering that it won't get us reads is wrong because it 100% will get *something* from it, then like I've said twice in the last couple posts, I agree with you that it's extremely extremely likely (as in like 99.99999%) we'd get at least something from it even if it's not that great, and I should re-phrase my point to 'it's not guaranteed to get us good reads that outweigh the drawbacks of massclaiming' since I agree arguing it might not get us anything at all is silly, and that ^ drawback does exist. We can get reads without massclaiming, so saying 'if it could get us some reads it doesn't matter what the drawbacks are, it's a good idea because we need reads to win' doesn't make sense since we don't need to massclaim to get reads. (Not sure if this is what you're saying or not but just in case)

I guess you're just not as confident in being able to get good reads off of people as I am then.

I'm confident we can get good reads off people without a massclaim. Why aren't you?

 

[Infected_alien8_]

woops

 

[Deleted member 4601]

I feel like if we're going with a massclaim plan then we should probably each reveal a bit more than what we're revealing now, or we should just not massclaim at all

At this point it's no different than forcing people to say something and getting reads from their posts, so we might as well just ping everyone who hasn't posted anything yet

Also why are we arguing about semantics

 

[Nottykitten]

Also why are we arguing about semantics

Yeah sorry me and Inf are spamming the thread with a useless back and forth

I feel like if we're going with a massclaim plan then we should probably each reveal a bit more than what we're revealing now, or we should just not massclaim at all

At this point it's no different than forcing people to say something and getting reads from their posts, so we might as well just ping everyone who hasn't posted anything yet

Same I think we should do rolename (full or partial) and ability (without cost&modifier).

 

[Omni]

Thoughts on lynching Inf to get rid of at best a detrimental townie? OwO

 

[Enderfive]

pre-game <o> said ender was scum

vote Ender

hi

would this truly be a bad idea

yes

in an odd setup like this the scum will have no time to figure out a reasonable fake claim!!

disagree

It could be we have a RID role so

thank you

im vanilla. i have 1 coin and i can do nothing with it

is this serious

Is that `<o>` supposed to be a body expression or am I missing something

it's a person holding their hands against their head to channel psychic powers

Ender, you best claim or you'll be lynched!!

no

a role claim now would force mafia to have to speedily put together a claim that may not fit a situation they find themselves in in like 2+ days time & i feel like it could be possible to distinguish a fake claim by looking at how much the economic panic scale thingy shifts BUT i havent looked into that yet so dont quote me!!

but ya it also exposes useful town roles but thats what any mass claim does! its just whether the rewards outweigh the risks, which i think they will but i pretty much support a mass claim in every game ever so i guess someone unbiased should give their opinion

mass claims in a closed setup tend to lead to a situation where the more mundane a claim is, the more likely it is that it's generally believed, since it's something the players can understand because of the relative simplicity of the claim

however, that means that
a) it's easy to fake claim something mundane and familiar, like a bodyguard, because firstly you don't need to make up much and secondly, it's more likely to be believed anyway
b) the more gimmicky roles on the town side, which i'm sure we have, will be less believed and we'll lynch our more powerful prs ourselves, leaving less work for the scum to do

I can support an early massclaim but wouldnt it be even better if we did softclaims so that claims later would be hard for mafias to fake while also not revealing all our PRs to mafias on day 0?

softclaims only work when you're not announcing them beforehand

This is just an excuse to try and not do it with a 'there might be X so we shouldn't since it would make a mass claim instead of extra great just normal great and is that really worth the risk?????'. Like people are so scared of an RID killer and refuse to claim names because of it and I don't get why.

because there's minimal benefits and a real risk of giving away something that can put us at an even greater disadvantage than what we already have due to the nature of the game

if we're massclaiming anything, let's do it when we can actually use the information gained, not before, otherwise we're just giving scum 2-3 days where their information advantage is even greater than what they start out with, and nothing we can really do with it all in the meanwhile

If we massclaimed in TPB for example, from memory the mafia could just claim all their roles as they were and it'd not make us CC anyone and we'd not have to lie

uh

did you just refer to mafia as "we"

 

[Infected_alien8_]

it's a person holding their hands against their head to channel psychic powers

thank you

uh

did you just refer to mafia as "we"

No but I did refer to them as 'us' since I was mafia in TPB

 

[Infected_alien8_]

thank you


No but I did refer to them as 'us' since I was mafia in TPB

oh yeah I did also say "we'd"

 

[ChocoFox]

—— Quarterly Economic Update ——
Deadline: 14 April 2019 UTC 22:00.
​

Infected_Alien8_ - 1 (Omni) [B-10]
Nottykitten - 1 (Infected_Alien8_) [B-10]
PokeSvorlds - 1 (Nottykitten) [B-10]
Timdood3 - 1 (PokeSvorlds) [B-10]

With 21 players, it takes 11 votes to bankrupt and 11 votes to no-bankrupt.

If no option reaches the required number of votes when a deadline hits, the day will end as a no-bankruptcy.