Other The Ban Appeal Forum

[SirComputer]

Hi,

I just wanted to post a quick thing about the ban appeal forum. The staff team have recently decided to reopen ban appeals to registered users. This was a decision made in the staff forum, started 2 weeks ago, and passed without any opposition that we know of. I've recently had a chat with a user who was concerned about this, so I thought I'd tell people our reasons for making this change, just so we can clear up any questions or confusion.

We want you to feel safe in your community. Say someone's been banned for harassment, and they're getting unbanned because it was only once or minor. Say that person has harassed you too. We want to make sure people know if people are getting unbanned so they can notify staff if we've not got the full picture here. Obviously, we'd hope issues were raised with us sooner, so we can deal with them quicker, but this could possibly happen.

We want to make sure you know what's happening in the community. Of course, the previous point can go the other way - if someone's going to be banned, and people don't think we've got the full picture, they can help fill us in if necessary. As well, if a big decision has been made on an appeal, we want to make sure people know why and understand the decision that has been made.

We want you to trust us as staff. If someone is being banned, and the staff aren't saying why they were banned, this can lead to mistrust of staff members. We feel it is important that our members trust us, and that we are doing our job the best we can.

Obviously, there are issues raised with privacy in this. People can feel embarrassed appealing, and perhaps you may feel people's bans are really necessary for everyone to see. However, we feel being transparent with bans will be more beneficial to us and the community in the long-run. You never know, apologising publicly, although daunting at first, could even help them to feel better about it in the long-run. We want to rebuild, not to punish.

I hope that's cleared up any confusion with the appeal forum magically becoming available that anyone may have. If there are any further issues you have, please feel free to discuss them in this thread, and we will try to resolve any problems you may have.

Thank you!

 

[Hex]

10/10 never close ban appeals again

 

[Psycho]

Not a fan of this seeing that I was the one that implemented blocking ban appeals from community members and only letting Staff+ see it. Of course, privacy was one of the main concerns regarding the reason why it was done, then there are people who say that reading ban appeals is "funny" or whatever when nothing in it is relevant to them at all. Honestly, I saw it as being no one else's business except for the banned player and the staff relevant to the ban.

Another reason why ban appeals were closed from members - If I remember correctly, there was an unwritten rule where it was "frowned" upon for having an irrelevant member interject their thoughts/opinions on a player's ban appeal - or maybe that was only for staff apps? Either way, it kept the appeals clean without having to deal with other members trying to say shit.

We want you to feel safe in your community. Say someone's been banned for harassment, and they're getting unbanned because it was only once or minor. Say that person has harassed you too. We want to make sure people know if people are getting unbanned so they can notify staff if we've not got the full picture here. Obviously, we'd hope issues were raised with us sooner, so we can deal with them quicker, but this could possibly happen.

So you want to keep players safe by having the ban appeals viewable so people can know when someone is unbanned? Wouldn't announcing unbanned players in the Community News posts serve the same purpose?
When you mention "so they can notify staff if we've not got the full picture" this makes it seem like the staff haven't done their job fully in getting appropriate information related to a player's ban appeal such as chatlogs or screenshots.

We want to make sure you know what's happening in the community. Of course, the previous point can go the other way - if someone's going to be banned, and people don't think we've got the full picture, they can help fill us in if necessary. As well, if a big decision has been made on an appeal, we want to make sure people know why and understand the decision that has been made.

Yeah, of course I want to know what's happening with the Community, but ban appeals should be the least of my worries. Where's the content and how's the advertising coming along? We get players but new player retention is still low. Anyway, you bring back the "full picture" bit again and it really makes me think that the staff don't get all the evidence to back up a ban that they made? That's how I'm reading it.

We want you to trust us as staff. If someone is being banned, and the staff aren't saying why they were banned, this can lead to mistrust of staff members. We feel it is important that our members trust us, and that we are doing our job the best we can.

I think this was another unwritten rule regarding staff not divulging information about a player's ban. It was just common courtesy to not talk about another player's ban appeal even if people became curious or start gossiping about shit that shouldn't be any of their business.

Staff are trustworthy, right?!? Speaking of which, why don't you make Staff forums viewable while you're at it since you're talking about transparency, right?

Anyway, this is just my frank input about a decision that I disagree with.

 

[Hex]

When you mention "so they can notify staff if we've not got the full picture" this makes it seem like the staff haven't done their job fully in getting appropriate information related to a player's ban appeal such as chatlogs or screenshots.

Let's be realistic for a moment. Do you expect us to scrutinize ever person on the respective server and ask each and every single one of them how their experience was with x player? Do you expect us to interrogate the whole server and ask them how they feel about the person, what the experiences with them is like? Do you expect us to mull over a weeks worth of logs just to hopefully find something that will be added against him? No, you shouldn't, because that's just crazy, and a waste of our time. You can't expect us staff to pick up on every single little thing, especially when some of it can be private.

Example:

Player A gets banned for harassment toward player B, as far as the most recent logs, all staff can see is that Player A publicly harassed Player B, so they get banned. Surprise surprise though, Player C, learns about Player A's banning from forums, and after a few days of Player A's banning states that they have proof of even more harassment toward them, but in private messages.

Is it staffs fault we didn't know Player C was being harassed? Is it us "not doing our job"?

We have our proof when we need to ban, SirC was never saying that we didn't. He was never saying that we could use this as an opportunity to slack off, or not do our jobs, but thats sure as hell where you went with. He was using the idea that when you put these in public, you can have more come forward with supporting evidence if needed. We aren't gonna go through and do a whole clean sweep of a server when they get banned, unless of course it was something major like death threats or something along that line.

We aren't expecting players to do our jobs, but we do hope that if we stop hiding ban appeals, we can get more information that may be helpful in the whole ban. There are most likely many things that could have been said about certain players that may have turned a whole thing around. Plus, maybe we did overlook something, and a player notices it. We're all human, we can overlook things.

Staff are trustworthy, right?!? Speaking of which, why don't you make Staff forums viewable while you're at it since you're talking about transparency, right?

Sure, if you want the updates / competitions and other new things we plan for you guys to be ruined, then go right ahead. Staff Forums are kept private mainly only because that is where planning for new things happen. Ban Appeals =/= Staff Forums is all I'm gonna say.

Another reason why ban appeals were closed from members - If I remember correctly, there was an unwritten rule where it was "frowned" upon for having an irrelevant member interject their thoughts/opinions on a player's ban appeal

We have a delete post button for a reason. Yes, we are aware players can now post on the ban appeal, but that isn't what this is meant for. All of the staff team agreed that moderation of the Ban Appeal forum would have to increase, but we are okay with that. If you have nothing relevant to say, don't say it on the thread. If it isn't relevant, it will most likely get removed.

 

[SirComputer]

Yes, we are aware players can now post on the ban appeal

Umm, this shouldn't be possible, and if it is, oh crap.

Speaking of which, why don't you make Staff forums viewable while you're at it since you're talking about transparency, right?

No need to blow everything out of proportion, same with the bit where you said announcing all unbanned players in the community news. You're a former Community Admin, you know why the forum's private. I think Hex said everything I would have said very well.

 

[Psycho]

Let's be realistic for a moment. Do you expect us to scrutinize ever person on the respective server and ask each and every single one of them how their experience was with x player? Do you expect us to interrogate the whole server and ask them how they feel about the person, what the experiences with them is like? Do you expect us to mull over a weeks worth of logs just to hopefully find something that will be added against him? No, you shouldn't, because that's just crazy, and a waste of our time. You can't expect us staff to pick up on every single little thing, especially when some of it can be private.

God forbid that you think this line of reasoning would be the first thing to do, but if that's how you interpret my interpretation of SirComputer quote, "so they can notify staff if we've not got the full picture", then so be it. Of course you would think that doing what you just mentioned would be a waste of time and batshit crazy - because it is - who would be daft enough to fucking ask every player about said person? Then again, "mulling over a weeks worth of logs" is actually feasible if you use Notepad++ >> Ctrl+F >> Find All In Current Doc.

Is it staffs fault we didn't know Player C was being harassed? Is it us "not doing our job"?

Two things:
Assuming that Player C got harassed in private messages - then No. It should Player C's responsibility to speak up.
Then again, if Player C was harassed in the main chats, then yeah, Staff should have caught that especially since most of them use Discord and probably scroll through chat history.

We aren't expecting players to do our jobs, but we do hope that if we stop hiding ban appeals, we can get more information that may be helpful in the whole ban. There are most likely many things that could have been said about certain players that may have turned a whole thing around. Plus, maybe we did overlook something, and a player notices it. We're all human, we can overlook things.

Are you sure? How long has the ban appeals section been closed off? It seems like you guys were doing just fine and dandy without it being open to the public. Maybe if you wanted more information - then you would use your line of reasoning in your first response and actually ask players who were active during the time if they have been offended by the banned player?! Then again, you'd probably think that would be a waste of your time.

Sure, if you want the updates / competitions and other new things we plan for you guys to be ruined, then go right ahead. Staff Forums are kept private mainly only because that is where planning for new things happen. Ban Appeals =/= Staff Forums is all I'm gonna say.

Yeah, of course! You guys could probably use Player input in Staff forums too! You know, to help you guys out or whatever so we can see constant updates and new content. Competitions? What are those?


Look, I understand that you're staff and that you would be offended by my straightforward remarks regarding what I interpreted from SirComputer 's post, and it's fair that you'll react that way. But don't think that just because I'm a player now that I won't react to things that I disagree with happening in the Community. It's better to be passionate about your views than to be a "yes-man".

 

[SirComputer]

Look, I understand that you're staff and that you would be offended by my straightforward remarks

Then again, you'd probably think that would be a waste of your time.

It's better to be passionate about your views than to be a "yes-man".

If you would stop insulting him, I'd very much appreciate it. You don't have to agree with him, but essentially calling him, from what I'm getting, stupid, won't get you anywhere.

It seems like you guys were doing just fine and dandy without it being open to the public.

You're completely right. We were doing just fine and dandy without it being open to the public. But we felt there were added benefits to it being open, and although I'm not taking this as a proper indicator of any kind, it does appear people appreciate it:

It should Player C's responsibility to speak up.

Players can often be afraid to speak up. We want to encourage people to tell us about things, not hold their problems in. We want a community where people feel they can speak up, and with these changes, it is what we hope to achieve.

Staff should have caught that especially since most of them use Discord and probably scroll through chat history.

We are not the type of people who spend their day scrolling through chat history scanning every line to make sure everything is absolutely perfect, and again, being a former CA you know that very well. As I said before, we want to encourage people, not let us find them when it's too late.

Yeah, of course! You guys could probably use Player input in Staff forums too! You know, to help you guys out or whatever so we can see constant updates and new content. Competitions? What are those?

I can assure you at least RoF has a long list of events for this year that the staff team hope to host. The build competition turnouts have recently not been great, which is why they have calmed down. Advertising is another issue altogether, and the admins are currently discussing the way forward for it because I have been awful at it, and you can expect news on it soon. And before anyone gets their hopes up, that doesn't mean you're getting rid of me just yet.

To cap this off, back to your first point - yes, we should be doing the things you mentioned, but when there is stuff we miss, which there can be, as you know very well, it is beneficial to everyone that we know about it. We will present what we know in the appeal, and we will have people tell us where we went wrong. You've done that with me, so the effects of this are showing already, and that is how a healthy community works.

 

[Psycho]

If you would stop insulting him, I'd very much appreciate it. You don't have to agree with him, but essentially calling him, from what I'm getting, stupid, won't get you anywhere.

How the fuck is any of what you quoted from me insulting in anyway?
"Look, I understand that you're staff and that you would be offended by my straightforward remarks" - I said that because I know that I can come off as rude and even reading his reply to me, it seems like he got offended when I mentioned something about staff.

"Then again, you'd probably think that would be a waste of your time." - This was in reference to what he even mentioned in his response to me

No, you shouldn't, because that's just crazy, and a waste of our time.

"It's better to be passionate about your views than to be a "yes-man"." - I'M TALKING ABOUT ME IN THIS FUCKING QUOTE

 

[Enderfive]

lol

Are you sure? How long has the ban appeals section been closed off? It seems like you guys were doing just fine and dandy without it being open to the public.

We were doing just fine and dandy back when they were open as well -- and that way the players can feel reassured that there isn't any funny business going around among the staff.

Maybe if you wanted more information - then you would use your line of reasoning in your first response and actually ask players who were active during the time if they have been offended by the banned player?! Then again, you'd probably think that would be a waste of your time.

I mean, if you want them to spend their time on this:

Yeah, of course I want to know what's happening with the Community, but ban appeals should be the least of my worries. Where's the content and how's the advertising coming along? We get players but new player retention is still low.

then yes, it kind of is a waste of their time.

But don't think that just because I'm a player now that I won't react to things that I disagree with happening in the Community. It's better to be passionate about your views than to be a "yes-man".

lmao

if only you'd seen the light a year ago, we'd have been unstoppable together

 

[Psycho]

if only you'd seen the light a year ago, we'd have been unstoppable together

Taking it from a different perspective and now It seems like I understand where you guys (you should know who you are) were coming from. It seems as if I'm taking over since you guys don't seem active anymore.

 

[Enderfive]

Taking it from a different perspective and now It seems like I understand where you guys (you should know who you are) were coming from. It seems as if I'm taking over since you guys don't seem active anymore.

 

[digi]

To name and shame banned users on a public forum is unnecessary and quite frankly, borderline bullying in itself. We know people abuse the ban appeal forums and troll other banned users. Why continue to give people this platform, when it has been known too lead to a cesspool of negativity and maliciousness? Based on the current use of the ban appeals forum do you really believe that people are using it responsibly and with the intention it was designed? Based on what I have seen, I think not.

If you really wish to create visibility on which users have been banned, a simple list of names in a thread should be sufficient, the context however is totally irrelevant. We are not a community here to entertain people with the latest gossip, and nor are we here to make judgements on other people. We are not vigilantes, we are humans just like everyone else, and when we choose to be apart of this community we put our trust in the administrators and monitors to make the hard decisions in regulation with the policies and procedures they have outlined.

Additionally, in terms of getting a "bigger picture" if the administration team wants to give users the opportunity to provide more evidence against a user who is on the "banned user list" the board should make it clear that someone can do this at any time and provide an avenue of doing so.

 

[Enderfive]

when we choose to be apart of this community we put our trust in the administrators and monitors to make the hard decisions in regulation with the policies and procedures they have outlined.

i, for one, have complete trust in our administrator overlords, at least as far as this particular policy is concerned
wait no i thought of a better one:
so do north koreans

as for the cyberbullying (i cannot stress enough how much i wanted to meme this point as well), i keep hearing talk of such, yet i've never actually witnessed any specific events nor have i seen anyone reference any specific events that could be described as cyberbullying because of public ban appeals

until either of those happens, i'm going to go ahead with my own assumption of it not really being as much of a problem as it's made out to be

 

[Danni122112]

Concidering this was my suggestion, I figured I might as well post my post here.
(I have never been good with words, especially not in English, please forgive me.)

Hello my fellow staff!

As most of you, hopefully know, the ban appeal section is currently hidden from view for anyone thats not a staff member, and archived ones might even be controller+, not sure about that one.
This was not the case when I left, so I asked a bit around and was told it was something that happened during the overhaul, or something like that, and I was told at the time It was said to be temporary.

What I am suggesting is to open the ban appeals again, both the open and the archived for everyone to view. Due to people being idiots of course, I would advice you to make normal player unable to reply or rate posts there.

However, "It used to be like that before, so lets open them again" is something that I am sure will not convince too many of you, but I actually have some reasoning behind this.

It all goes under being open about bans.

When a ban appeal happens, recent or not, sometimes player can see that someone has been banned for, lets say harrasment, but as it has only happened once, are getting unbanned again. So the player thinks:"Hey, he was kind of mean to me too! I'll send a message to the admins!". Of course all issues should always be reported to staff, but this does not often happen. Into this comes also that sometimes a players viewpoint, or if they know the incident well, or one of the parties involved, can be helpful for the appeal.

Another point which I find very important is that when, lets put this to the extreme, a global banned player is unbanned and put on a short leash, it is very important for users to know this before hand. This is both for them to prepeare, but also to understand. I do not think I need to explain this further, you guys get what shitstorm can easily come out of this.

Being open about the bans in this community is important. When players see someone they know get banned, and the staff is responding with that they cant tell them why they were banned, or they dont get the details, this can easily lead to misstrust of the staff members. It is important for players, especially the younger ones, to understand that they can trust us, and that we are doing our best at being as fair as we can with all bans.

I honestly never heard of a problem with it being open before, and I don't see why it would be one now.

Digitalmez I am sorry hat you feel this is a wall of shame or cyber bullying, that is not the purpose of it, and not the intention either. It is as I said in important to be open about bans, just like in courts in real life. I'f you have managed to get yourselves banned, there is usually a reason for it, having to talk about what happened with the staff is not the end of the world, and no more cyber bullying than the disagree or the dislike button, in my opinion.

Lastly, try to keep it civil here people, I understand that some of you have strong opinions on this subject, but we simply cannot please everyone.
A good healthy discussion on this subject is of course always welcome here.

 

[Aqua]

Hello my dudes, it has been a while.

I would like like to say I have complete faith in our acting admins in dealing with ban appeals, I recently had my ban appealed and the service was 10/10. I got helpful fast responses and it was over and done with within a matter of weeks. Honestly it was a very thought provoking but intimate time, and I learnt many things about myself and others and I felt like I improved as a human being.

The admins covered all the bases, such as the possibility I was ban evading MULTIPLE times, or that I may or may not have been banned from TS for coming home after heavy drinking and saying regrettable stuff to the League of Legends clique members.

I think the admins are doing a Wonderful and Astounding job at keeping the goodies in and the baddies out, so why don't we just let them do their job... Eh fellas ! Enderfive


p.s I'm drunk pls don't ban me

 

[Deleted member 4601]

oh boy

 

[Vatumok]

I don't really care a lot about this, I don't think it matters a lot whether or not everyone can view ban appeals but I'll give my opinion.

Bans are staff's concern, not player's concern.

There's not really a reason for it to be open to the public except for their enjoyment, which is not really what appeals are supposed to be for. Sure, you could say that players could help bring in extra information but I can tell you like 9/10 times this doesn't make things better because you will get subjective opinions on the matter which should be avoided.

Making appeals public could have the negative effect that less people are less likely to make a thread because they dislike everyone can just go read it, though I don't think this will be of much effect and definitely not lead to cyberbullying.

The way it used to be was more than fine in my opinion and I see no reason for this change. Staff is trustworthy, it's nearly impossible to abuse your powers when so many staff can see it. If you want players to know what's going on in the community you should do more meetings or post more threads to keep people updated, bans are not really relevant for "what is going on in the community".

And saying that the people like it - of course they do, they get extra priviliges.

That said. it has worked like this for a long time and it will be fine but it's an unnecessary change and I think energy discussing can much better be put in other things.

 

[Jayfeather]

Hurray


-----
[hello naughty children its drama time]

 

[mariosatr]

I don't really care a lot about this, I don't think it matters a lot whether or not everyone can view ban appeals but I'll give my opinion.


That said. it has worked like this for a long time and it will be fine but it's an unnecessary change and I think energy discussing can much better be put in other things.

I'd just like to expand on what Vatu said here - this change isn't going to make a huge difference.
You could argue either way (players reading ban appeals for enjoyment/judging people vs transparency in the community, I personally value transparency more than the minimal impact opening it up to players will likely have but that's just my two cents), but this change only really has good or bad impact in relatively unlikely scenarios. People really don't need to blow this out of proportion, it seems more like a minor tweak to me rather than a major change.

 

[IQD]

jesus christ its like lets talk 3.0 complete with emotional trainwrecks

 

[rosekill]

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice anywhere"(Martin Luther King Jr. , April 16 1963)

Just stop doing shady shit in ban appeals its not that hard to build a case against someone. The real problem is when your case falls apart and you get into the position of it being the sheer will of oneself against another. This leads to some ending with "We don't like you so you will stay banned". In many courts across the United States of America there is a separation of the prosecuting party and the deciding party of the case to stop such decisions from taking place at all.



[BCOLOR=transparent]The views expressed here are that of me and me alone in response to a multitude of appeals viewed this in no way references any of my own appeals. Now please actually fucking read the thread instead of looking at this tiny text, Its just here to cover my ass in the end.[/BCOLOR]

 

[les_morts_vivants]

i figure i would throw my two cents in
as a former global banned player who was banned for

Spoiler: a Myriad of things

stalking friendy
attacking other players
egging on fights
racism
homophobic remarks
transphobic remarks
stalking friendy's mom
doxing others
griefing
hacking
ban evading
letting jub use my account
misogyny
sexist remarks
race baiting
being a dick

i don't really care if people attack me and/or ostracize because i was banned in fact it's probably a good thing people excise caution around me or other repeat offenders

 

[digi]

I don't really look at this community as a court system, but rather look at it from an HR (human resources) perspective in a workplace/school?

We are making a potentially very sensitive subject, public. Should someone be tried and judged for their actions? Absolutely. But should it be broadcasted to the whole community. No it should not. Particularly in terms of why they are being banned.
The mistake someone makes is a personal one between the parties involved and the governing bodies deemed fit to decide the outcome. Being banned is punishment enough, but being " put on show" seems like an insensitive way of handling the situation. There are other, more appropriate ways of addressing the safety of players, but by giving people an inside glimpse to the way people are being tried and judged is not one of them and quite frankly doesn't really offer any type of protection or solution to player safety.
You're essentially showcasing a ban appeal as " the joke of the week", and that's how they're usually treated in this community.
-----

- I'd also like to make it clear that I do trust staff. I've witnessed a lot of fair, just and tough rulings in the six years that I've been here.
- And for those who disregard the bullying, it does happen. It's naive to think that because you haven't witnessed it, that it doesn't occur.
-----

Overall, my first post was to offer a solution. To show a list of banned players, but not show the context of their ban.

 

[doin alright]

Staff are trustworthy, right?!? Speaking of which, why don't you make Staff forums viewable while you're at it since you're talking about transparency, right?

is that honestly your big boy response
that's the "if you like smoking so much go smoke this whole pack of cigarettes" parenting technique.
not even a slippery slope fallacy anymore
its a fuckin... slip and slide mountain fallacy.

Look, I understand that you're staff and that you would be offended by my straightforward remarks regarding what I interpreted from SirComputer 's post, and it's fair that you'll react that way. But don't think that just because I'm a player now that I won't react to things that I disagree with happening in the Community. It's better to be passionate about your views than to be a "yes-man".

there's a didfference between being straight forward and having no tact in actual human discourse - unless you have some sort of high functioning autism where you can't pick social cues, i doubt you interact like that in real life (if you do interact with people irl haha nice xd). there is a difference between passion and being unneededly curt+abrupt with anything that dissents from your worldview, daddy.

Being banned is punishment enough, but being " put on show" seems like an insensitive way of handling the situation.

tbh the whole public stocks and shame aspect do work to a degree

To name and shame banned users on a public forum is unnecessary and quite frankly, borderline bullying in itself. We know people abuse the ban appeal forums and troll other banned users. Why continue to give people this platform, when it has been known too lead to a cesspool of negativity and maliciousness? Based on the current use of the ban appeals forum do you really believe that people are using it responsibly and with the intention it was designed? Based on what I have seen, I think not.

these are bans for videogame servers. its not a platform for maliciousness and negativity if someone can literally go play on a differetn server xd!

the only time shaming banned users should be seen as bad is if you're actively doxxing and witchhunting them (which doesnt happen tbqh desu ne_)

honestly theres gotta be a bit of shaming, if there's no mumbled apology while staring at their feet in childish shame they obvs don't really give a shit about being banned and will just shitpost anyway

really thoigh these are ban appeals for people being banned on fucking[] minecraft, nobody really gives that much of a shit

grow up guys lol

 

[SalientGorilla]

Holy cow, all we did was open the ban appeals! I don't think in the whole time I've been here, any one complained that they were open.

If you're that worried about people reading your ban, don't get banned, if you do get banned and still don't want people to read your appeal, either get over it (because well, it's only a game) or don't appeal.