I'd like to have a discussion about the ban of 46ftarCyberK.

[tnm]

Okay, time to clear some things up regarding what is possible for the client do. I did some testing locally to see what happened if I disabled certain packets (a packet is basically data being sent from client to server or vice versa) from being sent from client to server, after the player had logged in. First off, I disabled ALL packets except from C00PacketKeepAlive, which basically tells the server "Hey, I'm here! Don't disconnect me!". The player does not take any fire damage, yet is susceptible to punching and the like. He will also not take fall when teleported up, and of course the server will not recognise any chat messages, movement or anything else. However, there's a catch to this: when all packets are disabled, the player gets disconnected because, as far as the server is concerned, the player is no longer there (network connection dropped, for example). The only way for what I've described to be possible is to disable all packets par that one.


As you can see, there is neither evidence to support either way and such was a factor affecting the result of the ban appeal. If there's any more questions, I'm happy to discuss it, but I'd much rather a PM if it contains private information (if not, public is fine).

 

[JtTorso]

I would like to say that I think both Jayfeather and paceboys have made a lot of good points and this is the kind of discussion that we need, during the overhaul especially, but in general as well. As staff, I'm sure there are things we are blind to and having people remind us of that is important. Having non-staff give us their opinions is something we should prioritize more often and just because we say you can PM us at any time may not actually be true, there is and has been an obvious power dynamic between player and staff and that may make us unapproachable or players may just be uncomfortable approaching us. This discussion is far from a ban appeal, it's discussing the player staff dynamic. Staff have spoke enough regarding this topic, I personally would like to see what other people think regarding the concerns brought up by Pace and Jayfeather.

 

[paceboys]

Okay, time to clear some things up regarding what is possible for the client do. I did some testing locally to see what happened if I disabled certain packets (a packet is basically data being sent from client to server or vice versa) from being sent from client to server, after the player had logged in. First off, I disabled ALL packets except from C00PacketKeepAlive, which basically tells the server "Hey, I'm here! Don't disconnect me!". The player does not take any fire damage, yet is susceptible to punching and the like. He will also not take fall when teleported up, and of course the server will not recognise any chat messages, movement or anything else. However, there's a catch to this: when all packets are disabled, the player gets disconnected because, as far as the server is concerned, the player is no longer there (network connection dropped, for example). The only way for what I've described to be possible is to disable all packets par that one.


As you can see, there is neither evidence to support either way and such was a factor affecting the result of the ban appeal. If there's any more questions, I'm happy to discuss it, but I'd much rather a PM if it contains private information (if not, public is fine).

Thanks for making that information public. I'm glad that I made an impact on the decision ^__^

 

[Haysagar]

you just reiterated all the staff responses that we can't accept

staff hide any possible mistakes with private conversations
staff only consult staff even if they're wrong (I don't know enough about minecraft mechanics to support runemen's claim)
questioning staff gets you a warning because they are always right

That's pretty much what this thread accomplished in bringing to light but your recent post (jim) does not acknowledge these things

I disagree; I think that if I sent a PM to the admins, one of three things would happen:

1. They'd say 'Hey paceboys glad you sent this in unfortunately the case is already being dealt with but we appreciate it anyway'
2. They'd say 'No you're wrong we have proof it's not your place to judge but we appreciate it anyway'
3. They'd say 'Oh shoot dude you're right we goofed unbanning him now thanks man we appreciate it'

These are in order from most to least likely, in my opinion. I'm probably wrong but that's beside the point that if I want any opinion other than the admins I need to post it here, which is why I did. There needs to be a more public system behind bans/map applications. I see a lot more of the bans side than the map applications side. I'm not saying that non-staff members should have say, rather that all the information be present.

I imagined in the last posts of maps like 'The voting on your map was x to y resulting in your map being added/declined. We liked/disliked etc.' or for bans something like that where there is actual evidence and reasoning given to users/the public about bans/submissions. The fact that the proof Haysagar brought up isn't anywhere but here is, as I said, an unhealthy environment to be in. If only the admins can see certain things then generic community members have no idea what's going on in regards to submissions/appeals.

More specific about map submissions, taking a turn away from appeals, this comes to mind: http://escaperestart.com/forum/threads/farores-silent-realm.17696/

This kid made a pretty good map that no one had any problems with, and is declined. Why? This kid has NO idea what happened. If I looked at the post before Lovedaice said it was declined, I would have guessed that it would be accepted since everyone liked it. Now, I know why it was declined, but the public doesn't. This isn't a great example but this scenario has happened with reasons unlike this one.

I, and probably others, look at these appeals/submissions and are confused as to why they stayed banned or why it was declined when there was inadequate reasoning/lack of proof/no negative ratings.

I don't know exactly how any of this would work, but it's just a thought.

Did Jayfeather write this for you again?

 

[paceboys]

Did Jayfeather write this for you again?

??? What's your deal lmao the issue's being sorted out and you continuously take jabs at me for no reason, while continuing to call me salty and immature in teamspeak

we're having a discussion here

yet again you're against having an actual conversation by rating my post funny and not commenting anything, one of the few times that I post anything substantial on the forums and all you do is tell me that my post is garbage and continue to attempt to make me look bad

like seriously we're having a REAL discussion right now

 

[Vatumok]

Players are not allowed to post in ban appeals because it could turn out chaotic when the appeal is controversional like this one, this is a set rule. Appeals should be between the banned, the involved staff and the directors, if you have relevant information then you simply PM the involved staff. It's unfair to tnmjimbob to call him out on it in public, he did his best to keep the server fun and may or may not have made a mistake, that's only human. I'm sure he would've responded kindly if you PM'd him about this issue. I think it's that pace and Jay are outspoken people and want to have their voice heard more than that there is an actual problem. This thread is creating unnecessary drama IMO. This isn't the first thread doing that in the last week(s).

 

[paceboys]

Players are not allowed to post in ban appeals because it could turn out chaotic when the appeal is controversional like this one, this is a set rule. Appeals should be between the banned, the involved staff and the directors, if you have relevant information then you simply PM the involved staff. It's unfair to tnmjimbob to call him out on it in public, he did his best to keep the server fun and may or may not have made a mistake, that's only human. I'm sure he would've responded kindly if you PM'd him about this issue. I think it's that pace and Jay are outspoken people and want to have their voice heard more than that there is an actual problem. This thread is creating unnecessary drama.

I didn't call him out, I was directly referencing the events from the appeal he lead. I think you're overreacting, we're having a perfectly valid conversation and no one is calling anyone out except you right now. As I have said multiple times, I didn't want to post in the appeal again, nor did I want it to be a conversation between me and 5 admins, so I made this thread. I didn't attempt to call out anyone. I was bringing up an issue i noticed in the public so there are multiple opinions, and this thread has proved to have, in my opinion, a positive reaction from the community and have had positive responses from admins. I don't think this thread is creating any drama whatsoever, rather positively addressing an issue and finding a compromise.

I know that I shouldn't have posted on that appeal. I was quoting it to prove a point that I had to post it publicly here if I wanted to avoid a private conversation, which I did. As for what you said about us being outspoken, I usually see a lot of posts here that I feel strongly in one way or another and do nothing because I don't want to start drama, but this post was something I had 100% confidence in and made this post. I don't think I want my voice to be heard over others, rather I'd rather hear what everyone else has to say and form my own opinions without trying to make a scene.

Sorry you were offended by my post, I could have made it more clear that I thought what tnmjimbob was right for the time but wasn't accurate in the long run. I feel like this post turned out a lot better than I anticipated and this conversation is beneficial to the community.

 

[Vatumok]

Out of things the staff could improve on, unapproachability is pretty much the lowest on my list nowadays. Staff does and should have a bigger input in map submissions and appeals, that's what they're staff for. They generally have a lot better idea what's good for the server than players. For example, people may like a map but it's possible that the map in question could have horrible gameplay or another reason it's not approved. I can't even remember how many times I had to remove maps on zombie classic even though many people loved the map. I assume you didn't want to send a PM because you want to be acknowlegded as the person that 'saved the appeal', and I can understand that completely but don't try to brush this off as a real problem.

EDIT;
If you have a problem with a staff member's odd decision (like map sub/appeal) than just send him a PM, if he acts dickish or ignores you, you should report it to the admins and they will handle it.

 

[paceboys]

Out of things the staff could improve on, unapproachability is pretty much the lowest on my list nowadays. Staff does and should have a bigger input in map submissions and appeals, that's what they're staff for. They generally have a lot better idea what's good for the server than players. For example, people may like a map but it's possible that the map in question could have horrible gameplay or another reason it's not approved. I can't even remember how many times I had to remove maps on zombie classic even though many people loved the map. I assume you didn't want to send a PM because you want to be acknowlegded as the person that 'saved the appeal', and I can understand that completely but don't try to brush this off as a real problem.

EDIT;
If you have a problem with a staff member's odd decision (like map sub/appeal) than just send him a PM, if he acts dickish or ignores you, you should report it to the admins and they will handle it.

This IS a real problem, very little is given to the public by means of explanation. I never said they don't know what maps are better or what deserves a ban or not.

I don't care a single bit about 'saving the appeal'. That literally means nothing to me. I'm trying to push the community in a better direction by doing the things I've stated.

As I've said about 5 times, I don't want to be put in a conversation between me and 5 admins. I like open discussions. Admins/staff SHOULD make those decisions, but they need to post the outcomes publicly so people know what happened.

 

[Rune]

Again, I agree with Pace. We need to do a lot more in the staff - player aspect. I would love to see people being able to comment on ban appeals to either back the staff member or disagree. This discussion was civil and mature, but we really need an official discussion on this in teamspeak. I suggest that we have an official even concerning this topic in teamspeak, either this week or next.

Players are not allowed to post in ban appeals because it could turn out chaotic when the appeal is controversional like this one, this is a set rule. Appeals should be between the banned, the involved staff and the directors, if you have relevant information then you simply PM the involved staff. It's unfair to tnmjimbob to call him out on it in public, he did his best to keep the server fun and may or may not have made a mistake, that's only human. I'm sure he would've responded kindly if you PM'd him about this issue. I think it's that pace and Jay are outspoken people and want to have their voice heard more than that there is an actual problem. This thread is creating unnecessary drama IMO. This isn't the first thread doing that in the last week(s).

You are right that the ban appeals might be a little messy, but I think that messiness is needed when you interact with staff. I disagree with everything else, this thread did not create unnecessary drama, but was in fact needed. I don't like how you point out that Pace and Jay are "outspoken people and want to have their heard more than that there is an actual problem", and don't like what you did there, effectively jabbing at someone. In fact, you forgot to mention me; one of the main talkers in this discussion and even though that you are not applying that quote to me, it seemed to me that you ignored me.

I would like to say that I think both Jayfeather and paceboys have made a lot of good points and this is the kind of discussion that we need, during the overhaul especially, but in general as well. As staff, I'm sure there are things we are blind to and having people remind us of that is important. Having non-staff give us their opinions is something we should prioritize more often and just because we say you can PM us at any time may not actually be true, there is and has been an obvious power dynamic between player and staff and that may make us unapproachable or players may just be uncomfortable approaching us. This discussion is far from a ban appeal, it's discussing the player staff dynamic. Staff have spoke enough regarding this topic, I personally would like to see what other people think regarding the concerns brought up by Pace and Jayfeather.

I have to agree with Jt, this discussion was needed. This will reinforce the trust between the community and also remember not to forget my points

Okay, time to clear some things up regarding what is possible for the client do. I did some testing locally to see what happened if I disabled certain packets (a packet is basically data being sent from client to server or vice versa) from being sent from client to server, after the player had logged in. First off, I disabled ALL packets except from C00PacketKeepAlive, which basically tells the server "Hey, I'm here! Don't disconnect me!". The player does not take any fire damage, yet is susceptible to punching and the like. He will also not take fall when teleported up, and of course the server will not recognise any chat messages, movement or anything else. However, there's a catch to this: when all packets are disabled, the player gets disconnected because, as far as the server is concerned, the player is no longer there (network connection dropped, for example). The only way for what I've described to be possible is to disable all packets par that one.


As you can see, there is neither evidence to support either way and such was a factor affecting the result of the ban appeal. If there's any more questions, I'm happy to discuss it, but I'd much rather a PM if it contains private information (if not, public is fine).

I also thank you on making that information public, which shows that you care about this issue and also shows that you are willing to admit your mistakes and because of that, I have a lot more respect towards you.

This thread was beneficial towards the future of this community, something we needed in the long run and again, I think that we need a teamspeak discussion on this, between staff and players.

So Admins, are you up to plan a teamspeak discussion on this?

 

[paceboys]

So Admins, are you up to plan a teamspeak discussion on this?

I've agreed with everything you said up to this point. I don't know how often you're on teamspeak but I've probably got ~500+ hours over the years and let me tell you that having a large conversation does not work. Keeping it on the forums with clear and concise responses and no one talking over each other is perfectly fine.

 

[Rune]

I've agreed with everything you said up to this point. I don't know how often you're on teamspeak but I've probably got ~500+ hours over the years and let me tell you that having a large conversation does not work. Keeping it on the forums with clear and concise responses and no one talking over each other is perfectly fine.

I can get where you are getting at, I just thought that having instant responses and verbal feedback instead of visual would change it up a little. I can understand why you might not like this idea, I experienced it too xD

It's nice how this thread has become something which I wouldn't have imagined, again something which is needed and was pretty fun replying to this thread (It brought out my debating side which I haven't used in a while)

P.S: I know how voip works, I use mumble a lot with my old friends (I won't delve deep but players from a old server made a community which we have fun in and we use mumble extensively)

 

[Nottykitten]

Again, I agree with Pace. We need to do a lot more in the staff - player aspect. I would love to see people being able to comment on ban appeals to either back the staff member or disagree.

I seriously fail to see how this would be usefull. First of all to "back a staff member" is completely useless. I can already picture a staff member claiming someone was flooding a house for example complete with logs and screenshots and stuff. And then 5 people posting on the appeal saying "yeah I was there to I saw it he flood he guilty!!1!". Even one person saying that would be completely useless.

And if you really think a staff member is wrong, you can, as said, PM said staff member(s) with your problem. I'm sure all staff members would take your suggestion in consideration and see your point if you are right. And if not and you truely think you are right, you can take it up with higher ups. If they don't agree and you still think you're right, you can try publicly posting a thread complaining about stuff. But I doubt that if admins don't agree with you, the rest of Blocktopia won't either.

If non-staff members start replying on threads, people that appeal will wonder why non-staff members are having a say in their ban. You might say "They don't", but thats not how anyone that appeals will see it. Not if non-staff members are replying on their appeal.

When I'm at the Apple store asking them why my laptop is broke, I'd rather not have random people trying to explain to me whats wrong but instead have a professional that works there handle it.

 

[Mastersten]

I actually didn't want to join this discussion but saying that staff is Corrupted because of only 2 threads? (Meaning the ban appeal and the AoD map submission(=
http://escaperestart.com/forum/threads/farores-silent-realm.17696/))

There could be a thousand reasons for a map to be declined (maybe even because of the overhaul) and a player to be banned but corruption? That's a bit.... out of the blue since much staff members are carefully selected and evaluated

To stay on topic: I've seen it a lot of times and it just looks like lag, and it doesn't really matter that a staff member made a mistake but It does matter that that mistake is being evaluated and discussed so it won't happen again.

after all we're just humans right? We make mistakes

 

[Rune]

I seriously fail to see how this would be usefull. First of all to "back a staff member" is completely useless. I can already picture a staff member claiming someone was flooding a house for example complete with logs and screenshots and stuff. And then 5 people posting on the appeal saying "yeah I was there to I saw it he flood he guilty!!1!". Even one person saying that would be completely useless.

And if you really think a staff member is wrong, you can, as said, PM said staff member(s) with your problem. I'm sure all staff members would take your suggestion in consideration and see your point if you are right. And if not and you truely think you are right, you can take it up with higher ups. If they don't agree and you still think you're right, you can try publicly posting a thread complaining about stuff. But I doubt that if admins don't agree with you, the rest of Blocktopia won't either.

If non-staff members start replying on threads, people that appeal will wonder why non-staff members are having a say in their ban. You might say "They don't", but thats not how anyone that appeals will see it. Not if non-staff members are replying on their appeal.

When I'm at the Apple store asking them why my laptop is broke, I'd rather not have random people trying to explain to me whats wrong but instead have a professional that works there handle it.

In the same post, I said this:

You are right that the ban appeals might be a little messy, but I think that messiness is needed when you interact with staff.

It's true that if players kept replying to a ban appeal, it would become messy but sometimes we need other people's opinions on the matter and not just staff. The analogy that random people trying to explain what is wrong with a laptop could be true, but their opinions could be valid and reasonable. The professional is there to verify and ultimately come to a conclusion and fix that issue. The same thing applies to ban appeals, sometimes it needs a player to give their own personal opinion on the matter so staff can come to a conclusion more easily.

I also said this:

I would love to see people being able to comment on ban appeals to either back the staff member or disagree.

It's my personal opinion, not a decision. Humans will always disagree with certain points.

If a staff member had more evidence or what others thought of the situation would be beneficial to everyone. A staff member might have screenshots etc etc, they won't have the opinion of other players.

 

[paceboys]

I seriously fail to see how this would be usefull. First of all to "back a staff member" is completely useless. I can already picture a staff member claiming someone was flooding a house for example complete with logs and screenshots and stuff. And then 5 people posting on the appeal saying "yeah I was there to I saw it he flood he guilty!!1!". Even one person saying that would be completely useless.

And if you really think a staff member is wrong, you can, as said, PM said staff member(s) with your problem. I'm sure all staff members would take your suggestion in consideration and see your point if you are right. And if not and you truely think you are right, you can take it up with higher ups. If they don't agree and you still think you're right, you can try publicly posting a thread complaining about stuff. But I doubt that if admins don't agree with you, the rest of Blocktopia won't either.

If non-staff members start replying on threads, people that appeal will wonder why non-staff members are having a say in their ban. You might say "They don't", but thats not how anyone that appeals will see it. Not if non-staff members are replying on their appeal.

When I'm at the Apple store asking them why my laptop is broke, I'd rather not have random people trying to explain to me whats wrong but instead have a professional that works there handle it.

I'm not saying that non staff members should decide who gets banned or not

I'm saying that if only staff members know what's going on, it's a toxic environment to be in

I don't know where I said anything other than this but I really didn't mean to, the admins know what they're doing and they're doing it well but the rest of the community sees very little as to what was decided on and for which reason.

And PLEASE stop saying 'you can send a PM' 'you can take it up with higher ups' literally I've said 5 times now that I don't want to send a PM because I want to have an open discussion, not a 1v5 conversation. (Not targeted towards you, but anyone who plans to respond)

I actually didn't want to join this discussion but saying that staff is Corrupted because of only 2 threads? (Meaning the ban appeal and the AoD map submission(=
http://escaperestart.com/forum/threads/farores-silent-realm.17696/))

There could be a thousand reasons for a map to be declined (maybe even because of the overhaul) and a player to be banned but corruption? That's a bit.... out of the blue since much staff members are carefully selected and evaluated

To stay on topic: I've seen it a lot of times and it just looks like lag, and it doesn't really matter that a staff member made a mistake but It does matter that that mistake is being evaluated and discussed so it won't happen again.

after all we're just humans right? We make mistakes

I'm confused as to where this is coming from, I never meant to pin any blame on anyone. Trying to find a compromise so that situations previously discussed are avoided and more information is given to non staff members.

Thanks for all the responses, I appreciate it a lot.

 

[Nottykitten]

If a staff member had more evidence or what others thought of the situation would be beneficial to everyone. A staff member might have screenshots etc etc, they won't have the opinion of other players.

I just don't seem to get it. Can you name me 5 examples of situations where a non-staff members opinion is actually needed?

 

[Mastersten]

If you try find a compromise don't bring in an example from another server, this will mix up the past events and almost escalate into a global problem.

 

[Sploorky]

I just don't seem to get it. Can you name me 5 examples of situations where a non-staff members opinion is actually needed?

I think the point is, when it's for ban appeals that aren't simple griefs/floodings. When I was an admin, I asked a couple of non-staff friends for input on things because I trusted them to A: Give a fair and fresh outlook on something, and B: Not to be a yes-man.

I agree that the opinions of players is just as important as that of staffs, but as said before, having open ban appeals would go to shit very fast, there were already situations that I can remember from many smps ago where players would post stuff in ban appeals if they were the ones who got griefed or whatever, normally being very aggressive towards the appealing player, and just not being helpful at all.

 

[Rune]

I just don't seem to get it. Can you name me 5 examples of situations where a non-staff members opinion is actually needed?

That's asking for a lot. I am one of the newer members of this community but I have seen non-staff members opinions affecting ban results. It's also going off topic. I said that I would like to see more player interaction in ban appeals but now you are asking me to name examples which is asking for too much.

You might not understand, but I have not tried to jab at you multiple times but you have done just that to me. I don't appreciate it and I would like you to understand that trying to criticize everything I say isn't that nice.

BTW, the only example I can give right now is 46ftarcyberk which actually affected the decision of the ban. Try not to make me do extremely hard tasks when you should know that I am one of the newer guys in the block.

 

[Hunter]

this is a good thread.
notty, if players have actually useful input then that should be taken into consideration. i don't appreciate the strawman example.
am personally confused about the map submission issue. i see there's no reason given for the denial, but map submissions are open to non-staff input, right? that's how I remember it working

what i have a problem with is the warn/deletion thing. why was the post deleted? it wasn't inflammatory, disruptive, or lacking relevant info.
it'd be better to warn if truly necessary while leaving the post there for the server staff to consider.

 

[Nottykitten]

I said that I would like to see more player interaction in ban appeals but now you are asking me to name examples which is asking for too much.

I was asking because I don't see where their opinion is really needed for them to post on the appeal.

notty, if players have actually useful input then that should be taken into consideration. i don't appreciate the strawman example.

This is why I asked for situations where it would be usefull since I can't think of one but that "strawman" example.

You might not understand, but I have not tried to jab at you multiple times but you have done just that to me. I don't appreciate it and I would like you to understand that trying to criticize everything I say isn't that nice.

You want to have a mature discussion but I'm not allowed to question your arguments or ask you to explain them? Because you're saying you want something without mentioning any situations where you think it would actually be usefull.

If we're supposted to be giving arguments but we're not allowed to argue then I guess this is my time to leave the discussion. Along with the fact that I'm getting dislike ratings for posting my arguments. Which I find very immature and honestly I hate receiving them and wish they didn't exist but that's a discussion from a long time ago.

 

[Ltin]

I think on paper being allowed to post in ban appeals would be a good thing.
However, I fully expect people to abuse it to the point that it just becomes a nuisance for the people involved. Especially when it comes to second chances.

 

[Rune]

I was asking because I don't see where their opinion is really needed for them to post on the appeal.

This is why I asked for situations where it would be usefull since I can't think of one but that "strawman" example.


You want to have a mature discussion but I'm not allowed to question your arguments or ask you to explain them? Because you're saying you want something without mentioning any situations where you think it would actually be usefull.

If we're supposted to be giving arguments but we're not allowed to argue then I guess this is my time to leave the discussion. Along with the fact that I'm getting dislike ratings for posting my arguments. Which I find very immature and honestly I hate receiving them and wish they didn't exist but that's a discussion from a long time ago.

I put those Disagree ratings for a reason, I disagree with what you are saying. You could go ahead and put those dislike ratings on my posts, I don't mind. If you take offense over people giving disagree then it shows that you are immature. Go ahead; question what I say, I don't care but I don't like how you keep trying to make me look like an absolute idiot. Again, go ahead and disagree, I don't care. It's there for a reason and that reason is that the person who gave that rating disagrees on what you said and I disliked on how you tried to make me do something which I don't know a lot about on this community. Look at my join date compared to yours; you had more time to see what happened but I did not.

 

[Hunter]

for the ban appeals thing, why not have commentary on the appeal process in a separate thread, like the discussion tab on wikis
(yes this is a dumb idea but it's an idea nonetheless)
and for the warn/deletion thing, if the post is irrelevant to the ban, delete, but if it's relevant leave it
if it's not necessary, warn, and leave the post as an example of what not to do