WHY

[SurgenWolfTA]

Hello people of Blocktopia, I have a question for you.
In the tnt server, I was kicked for insulting ops. But I wasn't. I was telling the ops that cilents, like faster jumping thing wasn't fair for other players because they couldn't kill the player using it. I got kicked. Please explain why I got kicked because I was just teling the ops that it was fair and I wasn't abusing or anything, Thank you for listening to my complaint

 

[DarthLego5679]

...
What part of "Don't argue with higher-ups" don't you understand?

 

[chris360kss]

^^^^^

 

[Marnixxie]

@SurgenWolfTA If you feel treaten the wrong way please make a conversation on the forums with KingSam.
There is not really a need to make a thread about it.

 

[0x3c0]

If you really want to get this clarified, (as opposed to making a spectacle of it) then the logs you're looking for started at 8:31 PM, GMT+1 today. PM KingSam for them - I've sent all the ones I've got, and the server keeps them too, so they can be verified against.

 

[Refrigerated_Elements]

...
What part of "Don't argue with higher-ups" don't you understand?

 

[Chrise10]

@KingSam is sexy

 

[KingSam]

I love absolutely nothing more than spending my free time, which is more limited recently, replying to threads like these. It brings a tear of joy to my eye once I reach completion, knowing that I have helped out the world. For your information, I spent over an hour composing this. I don't even think that you deserve an hour of my time for such a little issue, but you asked for it and I'm more than happy to give you what you requested.

First of all, if you have something against a decision that has been made by one of the TNT Wars server operators, take it up with them in private discussion. If it doesn't end the way you want it to and still feel you want your case checked out, PM me and I shall get involved. I will then give my view point and that will be that. It's much easier, and saves you embarrassment, than starting a publicly viewable discussion thread in this section of the forums. Reason being that PMs are private, so you wouldn't be berated in public. Careful what you wish for.

Next, let me explain what they were trying to explain to you by saying that the World of Minecraft client is legal.

When you are logged on to the World of Minecraft client, you either have the option of using hacks, or not using hacks. To disable the hacks, you un-tick the box in the top of the client which reads "Enable Hacks". When this box is un-ticked, you cannot use the hacks which come with the client, such as flying, noclipping and speeding.

Our server, by default, has "-hax" in the MOTD (Message Of The Day). For all up to date World of Minecraft clients, this means that the client does not enable you to use hacks. This means you are restricted to what we call "no hacks". However, the jumping on the World of Minecraft client with hacks off is slightly different from that of the original client, which you can connect from via http://www.minecraft.net.

The main difference is that when you jump, you get a slight speed increase. This is mainly because World of Minecraft fails at coding their client, or wanted to change it. Whatever. So if you are running and jumping constantly, you will go faster than somebody who is just on the regular Minecraft client.

Whilst this means for servers such as Zombie, where the main goal IS running, it would be unfair for those to have a speed advantage, how ever minor it may be. TNT, on the other hand, is a server which does not focus solely on running, but on the utter destruction of your enemies. The slight change in speed that World of Minecraft users have is negligible when playing on TNT. Like I said, it is most noticeable when jumping.

In terms of most explosions, for somebody that you highlighted in the logs, players who are inexperienced and don't have the skill and reaction time to think about moving out of the way of the TNT explosion quick enough won't be able to. Whether or not you play on World of Minecraft client or the regular one, it makes little difference for majority of players, since their deaths are caused by their own error, not by an advantageous system that World of Minecraft has.

This brings me on nicely to other weapons, such as pistols, or in fact any weapon that shoots a beam rather than an explosion based weapon. Bearing in mind that these weapons only shoot on 1 layer of the Y axis, it means that it is possible to jump and be above the blocks of lava that it spews out, meaning that you survive from the pistol shot. This is possible both on World of Minecraft, and the original client.

Mysteltain, like you highlighted in the logs, constantly jumps whilst playing. This is a tactic that almost all of the more experienced players utilize, simply because they do not want to be killed by a roaming pistol shot. If you compare the two clients in the aspects of jumping, the original Minecraft client can jump constantly whilst holding down spacebar. In contrast, the World of Minecraft client will not. You have to press the spacebar each time you want to jump. So in terms of which client is easier to jump out of the way of low flying pistol shots, it's clear that both have their strong points.

Overall in the difference between the clients, each have some positives and some negatives. Whilst the World of Minecraft client enables you to travel at a slightly quicker speed when jumping, this requires you to BE jumping constantly to make it have a significant impact, which in itself is the World of Minecraft's downside. When you're avoiding shots, the Minecraft client makes it much easier to avoid things at your feet, since you can hold down spacebar and jump like a bunny until you get bored, or die.

Also, most things in TNT are at close range. When you are looking at the benefit gained from World of Minecraft with jumping to get the "speed boost", it is negligible at such short distances. The radius of a TNT explosion, for example. That's a common thing that you'll be running to avoid. In real time in the server, it takes roughly 3 seconds to explode. That's 3 seconds to cover enough blocks to get out of the explosion range. If you have a keen eye, you'll be able to notice it regardless of the client you're on and get out of the way in time. It won't make a difference at all as to which client you're using at the time.

Even if we were to decide that the World of Minecraft client is to be illegal to use, which we aren't going to do, it would require staffing 24/7 to monitor. The staff on the server are all volunteers. Nobody gets paid, they do it out of their own will and in their free time. Whilst you may think "Hundreds of people would volunteer then!", it's not just about who puts their name forward, we have standards. We only pick the best of the best, as they are representing not only the server, but the community as a whole. For that reason, we don't accept anybody as staff and therefore numbers are restricted in terms of who is an Operator and who can deal with it.

To have staff on 24/7 monitoring who uses the World of Minecraft client, it would require 1 of 2 things. Either we sacrifice the quality of the staff and accept a worse image of the community and server in terms of those in authority who represent it, or force those who do volunteer to do a hell of a lot more time. Neither are decent methods to deal with an issue of the sort. Since the "issue" is not much of an issue at all, as I've explained above, we would have no reason to do either of the two methods.

 

[KingSam]

So now I've cleared up why it IS fair that we allow both clients, I shall come on to the issue of why you were kicked.

Presumably, you had been killed by Mysteltain a few times before this particular scene and were quite irritated by it.

[2011-10-09 20:31:32] SurgenWolfTA was assassinated by Mysteltain's pistol!
[2011-10-09 20:31:36] SurgenWolfTA: told ya
[2011-10-09 20:31:37] SurgenWolfTA: hes cheatingz

Now here, a Veteran Operator tells you that he isn't cheating.

[2011-10-09 20:31:41] [Grenadier] Razinao: Myst isn't cheating.

It really should have ended here. Someone in authority telling you that Myst was not cheating. This whole debacle could have been avoided if you just said at this point "Oh okay, my mistake!" But no. It carries on.

[2011-10-09 20:31:47] SurgenWolfTA: he is =w=

Adamant that he is cheating, you fight your case. At this point, 0x3c0 joins in. That's TWO Veteran Operators telling you that Myst isn't cheating. But is that enough for you? Nope.

[2011-10-09 20:31:50] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: No, he's using a different client.
[2011-10-09 20:31:58] [Grenadier] Razinao: He's using World of Mine without hacks

There's your answer. He's on World of Minecraft without hacks. He's not hacking, but simply playing with the regular World of Minecraft client, and not using any of the hacking tools. Here Razinao explains to you what setting he has on, and what that means.

[2011-10-09 20:32:00] [Grenadier] Razinao: But with /client hacks on, it means you have a faster jump speed when moving. And your jumps are much quicker. I did a bit of maths, it's 7% faster.

As I explained when I was talking about the World of Minecraft client's benefits, when you jump, you move faster. But like I said, it has it's downside, and in the world of TNT Wars, the apparent benefit is negligible.

[2011-10-09 20:32:20] SurgenWolfTA: that is not fair for other people! i mean we cant jmp fast

So you can't do what he's done and gone to http://www.worldofminecraft.com, make an account and download the game client which others can do?

[2011-10-09 20:32:27] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: You can also use the client
[2011-10-09 20:32:29] [Grenadier] Razinao: WoM is a freely distributed program.

See, you too can use the client he was using!

[2011-10-09 20:32:29] SurgenWolfTA: so its not fair!
[2011-10-09 20:32:35] SurgenWolfTA: WHAT!

At this point, it seems you are enraged that he can use the World of Minecraft client, and last time you were on the server, you were told you couldn't use WoM. Presumably you weren't listening when Razinao was explaining to you that you can use the World of Minecraft client, providing that you have the hacks turned off!

[2011-10-09 20:32:37] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: It's perfectly fair.
[2011-10-09 20:32:37] [Grenadier] Razinao: Just google 'World of Minecraft'. Register. Install
[2011-10-09 20:32:43] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: You're choosing not to use the client.

Now you've been given instructions by Razinao about how to get the client, meaning you'd be identical in terms of the client you'd be using against Mysteltain, meaning that all your issues regarding the unfairness of him using the client should be now gone! Like 0x3c0 said, it's your choice to use the client or not, since some prefer it, and some do not.

[2011-10-09 20:32:45] SurgenWolfTA: last tiem i was here u couldn't use WOM

So presumably either you, or somebody else on the server who you observed, was using the World of Minecraft client, but using hacks with it, giving you the impression that using the client at all is frowned upon.

[2011-10-09 20:32:47] [Grenadier] Razinao: Play. [And make sure hacks are not enabled or we ban]
[2011-10-09 20:32:51] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: It's always been legal
[2011-10-09 20:33:02] [Grenadier] Razinao: The only illegal thing about WoM is the speed, fly or noclip hacks.

So now Razinao has finished his instructions about how you can get the client itself. 0x3c0 has told you that using the client, providing hacks are off, has always been legal. That's true, we've never told anybody who has been using the World of Minecraft client with their hacks off that they cannot play like that. Razinao mentions here again that you can use the client, providing you're not flying, speeding or noclipping.

[2011-10-09 20:33:07] SurgenWolfTA: myst is cheating jesus!

I cheated Jesus once, turned his wine BACK into water. He wasn't happy.

[2011-10-09 20:33:07] [Grenadier] Razinao: Which if you use gets you a ban on the spot.
[2011-10-09 20:33:12] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: No he isn't.
[2011-10-09 20:33:12] [Grenadier] Razinao: Myst isn't cheating christ.

Razinao has now explained that using hacks on our server means that you get banned and must appeal the ban. Both of the Veteran Operators online tell you, once again, that Myst isn't "cheating (Jesus) christ".

[2011-10-09 20:33:20] SurgenWolfTA: oh my god
[2011-10-09 20:33:29] [Grenadier] Razinao: You can get the client.

It's true, you can get the client. See, it's frustrating when people have to repeat themselves, especially when there's someone complaining to you because another person is better than them.

[2011-10-09 20:33:35] SurgenWolfTA: okay 1 thing no one can kill myst and plus
[2011-10-09 20:33:41] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: That's called skill.
[2011-10-09 20:33:44] [Grenadier] Razinao: Type /who Mysteltain
[2011-10-09 20:33:48] [Grenadier] Razinao: I see 441 deaths.
[2011-10-09 20:33:50] sniper17: ive killed myst b4?
[2011-10-09 20:33:54] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: Same.
[2011-10-09 20:33:57] [T] Stretford01: Same

So that's proof that people CAN kill Myst, as both 0x3c0, Stretford01 and sniper17 say that they have, and his stats say that he's died 441 times!

[2011-10-09 20:33:47] SurgenWolfTA: i used a cilent caleld double jump and they kicked me
[2011-10-09 20:33:56] [Grenadier] Razinao: Double jump = Super jumps = Illegal.

Razinao clearly explains to you that using double jumps are illegal. Once again, you ignore the person who is in power. Do you think we promoted Razinao because he knows nothing about the server or Minecraft at all? Well we didn't!

[2011-10-09 20:33:58] SurgenWolfTA: for having a cilent! super jumps is double jump -.-

People get annoyed when you agree with them. Razinao said to you moments before that super jump is double jump! Pay attention, it helps.

[2011-10-09 20:34:10] [Grenadier] Razinao: Notice how Myst doesn't jump over two blocks.
[2011-10-09 20:34:18] [Grenadier] Razinao: Notice how Myst doesn't exeed 5blocks per second travel

At this point, Razinao has explained to you exactly why Myst isn't hacking. Just a regular guy playing a regular game of TNT.

[2011-10-09 20:34:35] SurgenWolfTA: oh my god why cant u understand! all cilents are not aloud!

So YOU are telling HIM that it's not allowed? You, a player of the game, a guest, telling Razinao, a Veteran Operator, a staff member, someone who is promoted to enforce the rules, that it's against the rules to be using a client?

[2011-10-09 20:34:49] [Grenadier] Razinao: No, why can't you understand. I'm the staff here. I'm enforcing the rules made here.

See, even Razinao tells you. He's the staff member, so he has authority. He knows the server better than you, he knows the rules better than you. It's his job to know the rules and make sure people follow them. So what makes you think you know better than he does?

[2011-10-09 20:34:54] #0x3c0: MORON. IDIOT. FREAK OF NATURE

Our staff are only human. They get irritated when people fail to cooperate and can't grasp the most simple of concepts. It's not good when staff members get like this, because it shows that they aren't happy with you. Since they're in a position of power, they can give you a punishment for irritating them.

[2011-10-09 20:35:00] SurgenWolfTA: im understanding that cilents are not aloud
[2011-10-09 20:35:07] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: You're understanding wrongly.
[2011-10-09 20:35:13] SurgenWolfTA: what are u saying!

It's been explained multiple times now that the World of Minecraft client is allowed, providing hacks are off. 0x3c0 tells you that your assumption is incorrect, and you don't understand. It's not difficult; you may use the World of Minecraft client, providing that your hacks are switched off.

[2011-10-09 20:35:13] #Razinao: Darwin award. Right here.

If you are not aware, here is a link to what Razinao means by this. Now, staff members have a positive outlook on all players unless they do something to change that. By getting to the point where Razinao is mocking your intelligence, clearly you've got him on edge. He's no longer a happy bunny when it comes to you.

[2011-10-09 20:35:15] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: Clients are allowed. Hacks are not.
[2011-10-09 20:35:21] SurgenWolfTA: argh!
[2011-10-09 20:35:25] [Grenadier] Razinao: Hacks include jumping over 2 blocks
[2011-10-09 20:35:30] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: Client != hack
[2011-10-09 20:35:31] [Grenadier] Razinao: Travelling atleast 1.2x faster than normal. Or moving through blocks without deleting them, i.e, adminium.
[2011-10-09 20:35:39] SurgenWolfTA: if cilents were aloud then how come i got kicked?

Once again, 0x3c0 has to explain to you about clients and where it is illegal and where it is legal to use them. Again, you get frustrated. He's done nothing wrong, he's put it into as simple words as possible and yet you still can't comprehend what he's trying to get across to you. Razinao explains what other things count under the name of "hacks", and 0x3c0 says that a client does not equal a hack. Just because somebody is using a client different from the web version of Minecraft, that does not mean that it is a hack. Let's take, for example, the downloadable beta client for Minecraft. This is the official client, distributed by Mojang for playing Minecraft Beta offline. This is not a hack, it's a regular version of the game, it's just in a client form.

[2011-10-09 20:35:44] [Grenadier] Razinao: Because.
[2011-10-09 20:35:44] SurgenWolfTA: mhmm explain THAT
[2011-10-09 20:35:45] [Grenadier] Razinao: Hacks include jumping over 2 blocks
[2011-10-09 20:35:46] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: You'd have been hacking.
[2011-10-09 20:35:47] [Grenadier] Razinao: Hacks include jumping over 2 blocks
[2011-10-09 20:35:54] SurgenWolfTA: super jumps are double jumps
[2011-10-09 20:36:03] [Grenadier] Razinao: Hacks include jumping over 2 blocks
[2011-10-09 20:36:06] [Grenadier] Razinao: Double jumps = 2 blocks.
[2011-10-09 20:36:09] SurgenWolfTA: oh my god
[2011-10-09 20:36:09] [Grenadier] Razinao: Normal jump = 1 block. 1x2=2

You see, Razinao has to type multiple times that hacks include jumping over two blocks. He then gives some simple maths to explain how a double jump is hacking. You STILL can't seem to understand, even when 0x3c0 says that you would have been hacking to get kicked, meaning that you were not playing on the regular World of Minecraft client with hacks turned off.

[2011-10-09 20:36:13] SurgenWolfTA: raz how old are u
[2011-10-09 20:36:15] [Grenadier] Razinao: I'm 16.
[2011-10-09 20:36:32] SurgenWolfTA: no wonder!

I don't quite understand what you're trying to get at here. I too am 16. Your point? Nothing wrong with being 16.

[2011-10-09 20:36:39] [Grenadier] Razinao: You know the funny thing is. Grammar.
[2011-10-09 20:36:48] SurgenWolfTA: super jumps are double jumps
[2011-10-09 20:36:53] [Grenadier] Razinao: Mines inquantitably more correct than yours.
[2011-10-09 20:36:55] SurgenWolfTA: super jumps lets u go 2 blocks furter
[2011-10-09 20:37:05] [Grenadier] Razinao: Normal clients can jump 3 block gaps.
[2011-10-09 20:37:07] SurgenWolfTA: and double jumps lets u go 2 blockes furter too
[2011-10-09 20:37:10] [Grenadier] Razinao: Normal clients can jump 3 block gaps.

See, you still aren't on the same page as what's being said to you. Earlier in the conversation, it has been explained to you that both super jumps and double jumps are illegal. So I don't see what you're complaining about. They're agreeing with you, and you can't understand that.

[2011-10-09 20:37:21] [Grenadier] Razinao: You were kicked because it doubled your HEIGHT. Not your length.
[2011-10-09 20:37:31] SurgenWolfTA: ARGH
[2011-10-09 20:37:37] *Razinao sighs

Razinao's now explained to you that you were kicked because you were jumping higher than what both World of Minecraft with hacks off and the normal minecraft client lets you do. And as he's explained previously, that counts as hacking, which is against our rules.

[2011-10-09 20:37:39] [Grenadier] Razinao: Dear god. Without order comes chaos. And Darwin awards too many to count.
[2011-10-09 20:37:59] SurgenWolfTA: with out understanding comes people hacking

Razinao's tether is short here. Not many people can withstand such ignorance when it comes to such a simple concept. You're correct with your statement, however. You can't understand what is being said to you, which is why you still continue to hack. That's nothing wrong with our system, it's other people's incompetence. People can not understand things, as you have proven. As a result, that means that people do things differently to how intended, even if it is clear as to what you should be doing.

[2011-10-09 20:38:04] [T] Stretford01: I wish there was a command /kickall
[2011-10-09 20:38:08] [Grenadier] Razinao: I don't.
[2011-10-09 20:38:11] SurgenWolfTA: there is
[2011-10-09 20:38:12] SurgenWolfTA: o_o
[2011-10-09 20:38:15] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: There isn't.
[2011-10-09 20:38:19] [T] Stretford01: There isn't
[2011-10-09 20:38:21] SurgenWolfTA: there is

Just a side note here, you weren't the only person that the staff were having issues with at the time on the server. Hence why Stretford said he wanted a /kickall, because there were so many people not doing what they should be that they may as well all be kicked. Then you disagree with the staff of the server, who, let me remind you, know much more than you do in terms of the server. You've hardly played it, they've staffed on it and know what staff commands there are and aren't. /kickall is not a command. I don't know WHY you continue to disagree with those who know much better than you, other than just to cause an argument.

[2011-10-09 20:38:23] HenkKleister: there is a banall
[2011-10-09 20:38:27] SurgenWolfTA: ya that one
[2011-10-09 20:38:28] HenkKleister: but thats ipban

What Henk means is that there is a command, called /ipban, which bans a certain IP. This is essentially banning all of the accounts which try to log in with that IP, so is a kind of "ban all", but not the one that was being discussed. But nevertheless, you're continuing to spout rubbish out of your fingers and onto the server, when you have no idea what you're on about.

[2011-10-09 20:38:39] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: SurgenWolfTA, a moment?
[2011-10-09 20:38:45] SurgenWolfTA: mhmm?
[2011-10-09 20:38:59] SurgenWolfTA: ya 0x3?
[2011-10-09 20:39:08] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: You've been insulting most of the op+ on here, and

Here's where you can tell that they've all had enough of you. You had been constantly disagreeing with whatever was said to you, insisting that they were wrong, and you were right. That's some crazy arrogance there, thinking you're right about issues you have no knowledge of.

[2011-10-09 20:39:12] SurgenWolfTA: .... so ur telling me that i should leave because im insulting people
[2011-10-09 20:39:24] [Grenadier] 0x3c0: attempting to correct rules which have been proven to
[2011-10-09 20:39:29] SurgenWolfTA: and i was just saying that cilents were not aloud okay okay i got i got fine i'll leave

He was not in any way telling you to leave the server. Whilst he may have wanted you to, so that he didn't have to deal with your ignorance, he didn't say that. He simply wanted you to calm the hell down and listen to figures of authority. And still, to near your final breath, you fight. Causing a scene, trying to provoke a response from him. It's ridiculous.

[2011-10-09 20:39:46] #0x3c0: *waits*
[2011-10-09 20:39:51] SurgenWolfTA has been kicked by Stretford01 for Just leave

Finally, Stretford has had enough of you and decides to kick you. After saying "fine, i'll leave", you get angry that you were kicked? What the hell, seriously. After nearly 10 minutes of having to deal with you constantly, I think that the staff who had to deal with you had incredible patience.

Still have a problem?

(See, this was so long it had to go over 2 posts, since it surpassed the 20k character limit for posts.)

 

[BurnyBurn]

@KingSam

Holy wall of text!

I must say I laughed at various points while reading.

@SurgenWolfTA

I understand that it can be frustrating to be killed over and over and over again by Myst (which happens to almost everyone on the server at one time or another.) Just take note that Myst is an extremely good player in this server and others.

 

[KingSam]

@KingSam

Holy wall of text!

I must say I laughed various points while reading.

Clearly you don't know the definition of a wall of text. I used decent paragraphing, decent spelling and grammar, and it's perfectly readable.

 

[BurnyBurn]

Clearly you don't know the definition of a wall of text. I used decent paragraphing, decent spelling and grammar, and it's perfectly readable.

Sorry :I

I meant it was incredibly long.

 

[Celebrir]

It took me 20 minuets to read it... It amused me!
/me shakes his head.
/me face-palms...

One question.

[2011-10-09 20:36:13] SurgenWolfTA: raz how old are u
[2011-10-09 20:36:15] [Grenadier] Razinao: I'm 16.
[2011-10-09 20:36:32] SurgenWolfTA: no wonder!

How old are you?!
You argued about it, and laughed at a 16 year old VET-OP...
Are you 26? I guess you're 13... at least you act like it.

 

[Razinao]

Had I known this was going to be posted in full logs i'd have controlled my... mocking a bit better. >_>

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure that if you're going to disagree with KingSam then it's you vs the staff. Infact, you vs the community. So accept that WOM = Legal unless you fly, ctrl speed or noclip. Clients that also place lava/water/adminium without limitations are banned (because placing lava /adminium = grief tools, apparently the iPod Minecrafted can).

You can play on minecraft.net, or World of Minecraft with the latest version (which prevents you hacking anyway.)

 

[Eternal Bliss]

@KingSam Never fails to make me smile.

 

[Toco Toucan]

@KingSam Never fails to make me smile.

Indeed.

 

[namelessgoggeh]

@SurgenWolfTA Now I know how frustrating it is to be killed over and over again. Most presumably, you aren't as laggy as I am since you can actually sees the most minute movements of Myst.

I probably have the worst KDR since I have 700 ping most of the time, and play Minecraft Classic at 7 fps. Now, I don't see a problem. You seem able bodied to pretty much kill anybody if you have some 20+ fps. I've managed to get some kills even with my horrid PC.

Why don't you try to kill someone else in the match? Or actually (instead of making a big scene) think before you act. Which I think is one of the server messages: "Use your brain before complaining". But, you might have not been on the server that long to even grasp that server message nor understand what the staff have told you.

 

[Toco Toucan]

Which I think is one of the server messages: "Use your brain before complaining".

It's "Use your brain before you complain."

 

[LagWarrior]

Gaw. This made my day.

 

[balloon98]

1. KingSam made my day 2. thats more attention ANYONE has gotten from KS