The Bastard Game: Day 5

[Infected_alien8_]

Are you fucking high, voting Aqua lynches whoever has the role Aqua, if you want to vote for me vote 112

Oh right

THIS MECHANIC SEEMS SO COUNTER INTUITIVE TO ME (i mean it makes sense since it means maf cant accientally kill themselves and our survival doesn't depend on whether someone else outs themselves or not but MY BRAIN KEEPS MAKING IT GO THE OTHER WAY)

 

[Danni122112]

And does anyone have any idea why Unu might be able to vote for the legitimate player? How is that useful to us?

No clue, might just be another thing meant to fuck with us.

 

[Danni122112]

Oh right

THIS MECHANIC SEEMS SO COUNTER INTUITIVE TO ME (i mean it makes sense since it means maf cant accientally kill themselves and our survival doesn't depend on whether someone else outs themselves or not but MY BRAIN KEEPS MAKING IT GO THE OTHER WAY)

So you are fucking high?

 

[Danni122112]

The only thing I can think of is that it'd be useful in a late-game cc'd name scenario, where two people have claimed the same name and town want to lynch one of them but can't decide who's lying

Say the alive players are Arelic, Jivvi, Inf, Oog, Notty, and Unu

And Arelic and Notty claim to be rolename Jivvi, and the Mafia is lying and doesn't actually have a name

We could make the votecount this

Jivvi - Inf, Oog, Jivvi (3/6)

Then have Unu vote for Arelic, and if Arelic survives, Notty is the real Jivvi, because otherwise Arelic would have 4/6 votes, so they can know that Arelic is lying and isn't Jivvi and lynch Arelic

But that'd be a 50/50 shot at mislynching and it just seems like such an unlikely and pointless scenario that it surely can't be the point of his role, and it would only ever happen if Mafia weren't given a different name, which I think is unlikely considering the info we have right now

I mean we could use it now too, if someone claims something to check the same way, but it would be really hard to pull off and not that useful.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

I mean we could use it now too, if someone claims something to check the same way, but it would be really hard to pull off and not that useful.

Yeah it wouldn't be useful at all since if they're being truthful they die which isn't really what we'd ever want, it'd be like those witch trials where they were like "If you drown you were innocent!" but oops it's too late to set them free after realizing they're innocent because they died and it was pointless

 

[Oak Milk]

I'll be honest, its not that I've been ignoring things, I'm just very fucking confused.

Host is doing a great job clearly.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

I'll be honest, its not that I've been ignoring things, I'm just very fucking confused.

Host is doing a great job clearly.

Why did you imply that I was lying about having a different name?

 

[Jivvi]

But what confirms that Jivvi is town?

inf. oddly enough the i'm the one confirming inf's role, who's the one confirming notty's role, so if i'm lying then notty isn't proven.

mislynch today we're in a pretty bad position

no? how would you know this? (unless ur mafia naturally). we've only lost 3/20 players and one of them wasn't even town mafia should have 5ish players at a maximum since the well-established ratio is ~1/4 of the players should be mafia when dealing with standard factions (town/mafia/3p as opposed to multiple mafias or a cult). it's day one. you can always afford a mislynch on day one, and i would absolutely say that my role is worth a theoretical possible mislynch on a day where town almost invariably mislynches anyway.

i don't like the foggy plan cause i find it oddly convenient that that it turns an antitown role town-sided (what if they hit something like a framer or a third-party role like dess'). obviously it doesn't affect the circumstance where it is used on me (being town town-sided) but it seems like the sort of fake addendum a third-party role would add to their claim as is extremely common in this sort of "i'm 3p but i can win with town dont lynch me" gambits (god why do these happen literally every game here). this does beg the question as to why (unless i've missed something) foggy and danni have near-identical roleclaims? unless foggy is inf's second doctor man who gets promoted when inf dies i fail to see how a perma-town-sided amnesiac is balanced

i think a massclaim is important now for the purposes of allowing town-sided PRs to pick up the slack tonight if we mislynch me or someone else. i think it's extremely scummy to tell our blocker to chose someone inconsequential which a) means we get zero value out of it which should not be what we want and b) allows them to be targeted by a mafia watcher/tracker-type, if they have one (as oog mentioned a while ago i think). in a situation where i flip town, the town vig needs to be able to target notty so that if she'sany sort of mafia PR the mafia can't use her extra night alive to get even further ahead of us. honestly i can't think of anything scummier than saying "no you can't lynch me or target me tonight because i'm saying i'm town and you have to believe me cause i'm telling you to". the disadvantages are negligible because we're allowing all town PRs to be fully effective, which i daresay will outweigh the benefit the mafia gets, since mafia rarely have that many abilities at their disposal.

fmpov our 3 options here are:
-take the safe option and give me (and notty if you're so inclined to believe) another night to get results before lynching an investigative claim on day one. if notty's so concerned about mislynching we can easily no-lynch, or lynch danni since he's a known third-party
-lynch someone people were already kind of sus on such as hkcaper or ltin and postpone this until tomorrow (unless a town pr decides to do something overnight to let us hit two birds with one stone, although for that we'd need a massclaim
-notty is third-party lyncher or some shit & just has to lynch her name at all costs so we should totally lynch her rn

typing out the first point also made me wonder why on earth notty outed herself today with only one guilty. in a setup this large, especially one where you weren't in any great danger of being lynched at any point in time, wouldn't you want to get at least one more report? even if was an inno that's miles more useful (plus it might have helped you work out your sanity before you started a bandwagon on another town pr)

 

[Infected_alien8_]

i don't like the foggy plan cause i find it oddly convenient that that it turns an antitown role town-sided (what if they hit something like a framer or a third-party role like dess'). obviously it doesn't affect the circumstance where it is used on me (being town town-sided) but it seems like the sort of fake addendum a third-party role would add to their claim as is extremely common in this sort of "i'm 3p but i can win with town dont lynch me" gambits (god why do these happen literally every game here). this does beg the question as to why (unless i've missed something) foggy and danni have near-identical roleclaims? unless foggy is inf's second doctor man who gets promoted when inf dies i fail to see how a perma-town-sided amnesiac is balanced

Yeah, I was trying to think of examples as to how foggy's role would be unlikely due to the whole 'keeps as town' thing but dess' role is a perfect example. If Fog turned into Dess would he just be able to 'bet' but wouldn't actually win anything with the money? What would be the point? I wonder if Foggy is hiding the fact that he can indeed switch allignments and is trying to counter claim Danni.

And I completely agree with literally everything else you said in that post.

 

[Infected_alien8_]

Unusual_Dood thoughts on HKCaper?

 

[Notme]

theres a simple fix to this
Notme what are your opinions on inf, notty, and jivvi today / any other suspicions you may have <3

All of three are bit suspicious

 

[Notme]

Is it just me who finds it incredibly strange that Notme was very vocal yesterday but like 95% of his activity went into persuading us that the list which said he was third party was inaccurate, meanwhile today, whilst that topic has been buried, he has been pretty completely silent

I was saying entire list was lie, it appears like Notty trolled everyone after all.

 

[Jivvi]

All of three are bit suspicious

man literally any elaboration on this would be incredible

 

[Infected_alien8_]

I was saying entire list was lie, it appears like Notty trolled everyone after all.

So where have you been for the rest of the game? Why have you shared no opinions on anything else other than that list?

 

[Infected_alien8_]

other than that list?

well, and the name-mechanic stuff

 

[Danni122112]

no? how would you know this?

Concidering we lynched a townie first day, and lose another one last night, and we have not gotten a single mafia member yet, we kind of have to start picking away at those mafia members ASAP if we want to have any leeway for the rest of the game.

Just seems like common sense to me that mislynch two days in a row would put us in a bad spot.

 

[Notme]

Well I play all mafias like this.

 

[HKCaper]

Also I've

Also I've decided that HKCaper is incredibly suspicious this game.

He's scumhunted very little, to the point where I'm convinced he isn't town sided because he hasn't shown any town-sided intentions. If you compare his activity to other games, he has been extremely different. He's focused on irrelevant things like the unu lynch rather than give his opinion on the more relevant matters and I think he's Mafia.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, mydude

On different news, i think inffy is scum, because he said something, like right after someone said somethings else.

Okay jokes aside, im not suprised you have decided i am incredibly suspicisous (how nice of you to have decided that), since im quite sure you have been suspicsous of me every single game ive played.

That aside, i disagree with what you say. Id argue i havent been doing useless shit all game, and actually have been contributing to figuring out this mess of a setup. Some of my theories might have been a bit farfetched, but ive always been doing this and you are never sure with this gamemode. Keep in mind its not my fault day 0 ended before i got back from my trip, and you (not you alone) lynched a very useful town role, without fully considering the role mechanic. Maybe today i havent been commenting to much on suspicions, but this game is a mess, and i simply have no info to discuss the inf/jivvi/notty situation, besides that you have lied a bit, i find jivvi vague and susps, and i trust notty for now.

Also funny how you mentioned unu as an example for 'useless' things i have done and the post the following:

And does anyone have any idea why Unu might be able to vote for the legitimate player? How is that useful to us?

Which is exactly what i have been trying to figure out, and have been mentioning. Weird. decided that HKCaper is incredibly suspicious this game.

He's scumhunted very little, to the point where I'm convinced he isn't town sided because he hasn't shown any town-sided intentions. If you compare his activity to other games, he has been extremely different. He's focused on irrelevant things like the unu lynch rather than give his opinion on the more relevant matters and I think he's Mafia.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, mydude

On different news, i think inffy is scum, because he said something, like right after someone said somethings else.

Okay jokes aside, im not suprised you have decided i am incredibly suspicisous (how nice of you to have decided that), since im quite sure you have been suspicsous of me every single game ive played.

That aside, i disagree with what you say. Id argue i havent been doing useless shit all game, and actually have been contributing to figuring out this mess of a setup. Some of my theories might have been a bit farfetched, but ive always been doing this and you are never sure with this gamemode. Keep in mind its not my fault day 0 ended before i got back from my trip, and you (not you alone) lynched a very useful town role, without fully considering the role mechanic. Maybe today i havent been commenting to much on suspicions, but this game is a mess, and i simply have no info to discuss the inf/jivvi/notty situation, besides that you have lied a bit, i find jivvi vague and susps, and i trust notty for now.

Also funny how you mentioned unu as an example for 'useless' things i have done and the post the following:

And does anyone have any idea why Unu might be able to vote for the legitimate player? How is that useful to us?

Which is exactly what i have been trying to figure out, and have been mentioning. Weird.

 

[Jivvi]

Concidering we lynched a townie first day, and lose another one last night, and we have not gotten a single mafia member yet, we kind of have to start picking away at those mafia members ASAP if we want to have any leeway for the rest of the game.

Just seems like common sense to me that mislynch two days in a row would put us in a bad spot.

there are twenty players in this game, and we've only lost two townies. if we hazard a guess and say there's ~5 mafia and ~3 third parties, then we still have ~10 townies left, which is a fine position to be in on day one. we're miles away from a mylo/lylo so this is argument doesn't help anyone except notty by trying to fear-monger. it doesn't even work as an argument to lynch me since notty being confirmed by inf hinges on the assumption that i'm town anyway, so there's no lynch where we don't risk mislynching.

 

[Oak Milk]

Why did you imply that I was lying about having a different name?

Because I failed to read the fact that I also have a name

 

[Iggish]

If I missed anyone, please do tell me

You missed me :c I'm Iggish.
Also it would be nice if someone could expand that list to three columns to include role claims (and possibly the claimed mechanics too).

As for the Jivvi / Notty thing. I believe that Inf is town (although the claim is a bit weird), so as a result I believe what he said about notty being targeted by mafia. Unless there are some crazy hocus pocus role mechanics at play here, I think this confirms (for me anyway), that notty is not mafia. While it doesn't confirm her being town either, I'm inclined to believe her cop claim (even though that was also a bit weird).

So naturally, I don't want to lynch notty. However this does not mean I want to lynch player notty (Jivvi). This is a bastard set up and Notty could easily be an altered cop and so their report on Jivvi could not be valid. Also, as there are two doctor roles in the game, I wouldn't be so hasty to dismiss entirely the possibility that Jivvi and Notty's roles can co-exist as well.

As for a mass claim, we really have to decide if the risk is worth it. I know this sounds very basic but it's true. There are three night kill roles in the game that we know of. I'm guessing a serial killer, standard mafia and a town vigilante. As I previously said in one of my posts that actually had something valuable to add, I think the serial killer can cut through role names to kill the real player. For example, if they decide to kill Notty, the real notty will die instead of Jivvi, who has the notty player role. A mass player role name claim would therefore not affect the serial killer. That would mean that kills wise, the mass claim would give the vigilante the proper info to make an informed kill and it would do the same for the mafia. This means that we would only hopefully lose one town player as a result of the mass claim which is what would've happened during the night anyway (granted that the vigilante does a good night play). From the kills perspective, I don't think that a mass claim is a big disadvantage at all, especially considering that we have two doctors to protect the town PRs.
If we're being pessimistic / realistic as well, there probably is some form of mafia roleblocker present.

Now we get on to the real advantages. With a mass player role name claim, we could actually lynch properly and for who we actually want, instead of being restricted to a certain number of players. This helps the town massively as a town's best weapon in mafia is the lynch. Our PRs could also actually choose who they wanted to visit as well instead of a blind stab in the dark. The benefits of this are pretty self explanatory.

So basically, a mass player role name claim gives information both to the mafia and the town but I think it is a lot more beneficial to the town.
I think we should mass role claim. (Please point out if I've missed as an obvious disadvantage or mechanic here as I've read most of this game on my phone and have been quite confused in some places)

As for me myself, I think some people had some questions for me but I can't specifically remember so now that I'm back home and at my laptop, feel free to fire away.

 

[Mooglie]

honestly i'm trying to think through the <o>s of ender about what a game focused on deception would look like, whether it would include two townsided investigative roles (as in allignment investigation based) that he predicted would end up having a lynch fest against eachother resulting in the surviving party looking like scum, and then being lynched the next day??

a theory that notty raised that i don't think got all that much attention was the idea of jivvi being a mafia innkeeper since it would make sense (especially in a game of deception) and as ender didnt explicitly state anything in that PM, it is very possible. the innkeeper would allow the mafia to figure out whos names are linked (e.g. he found out that inf had ____'s name and dess had my name) allowing them to get nightkills on the correct people while gaining information on peoples allignments/roles under the false pretense of it being a town sided lie detector

but, if the general consensus is that we should lynch neither jivvi nor notty to allow them to have another night to prove themselves THEN i feel like this list of people (blue = dont lynch today, uncoloured = possible lynch candidates) is probably the best pool to select from?

Spoiler: uh i dont wanna take up space

1. Aqua
2. Iggish
3. Infected_alien8_
4. Vatumok
5. Ooglie101
6. hipman500
7. Nottykitten
8. TheWeakGuy48_
9. Unusual_Dood
10. Dess
11. Arelic
12. Fog
13. Danni122112
14. One one two
15. Runemen4
16. Oak63
17. Jivvi
18. Notme
19. HKCaper
20. Ltin

ok reasoning time (for blues):

• iggy - claimed that he had his own name, drawing unneeded attention to himself where that would have been something worth hiding if mafia/third party (obviously you can WIFOM this)
• inf - hes a doctor-esque claim so pretty self explanatory
• oog - well i trust myself obviously
• notty - as stated above this is in the scenario we lynch neither jivvi nor notty today to allow them more time to prove themselves
• unu - the whole vote being for real person mechanic draws quite a lot of attention to them (obviously this wasnt in unu's control) but i couldnt imagine this happening to a mafia, possibly a third party but i'll give benefit of doubt, and inf posted the way this could be useful in future to determine if someone being lynched has the correct name which i understood but it's a bit risky and unlikely to happen BUT yeah i think he deserves blue
• fog - claimed town PR-ish & has definite use in terms of there being two claimed investigative roles and one claimed protection role
• rune - claimed town roleblocker
• jivvi - look at nottys reasoning

in my world, hip and one_one_two (i call him OOT btw i guess ill just specify that now for later use) would also be in blue as neither are particularly vibing hard to me, and i still feel somewhat bad for danni & he isnt my biggest suspect as a scummy third party if he's lying about mimic so he would ideally not be lynched today but like yesterday if it comes down to it

this is probably a field day for inf tho as vat, hk and ltin are all still in uncoloured so you go gettem

as for the people in uncoloured, i haven't really been focusing on anything today other than the inf/jivvi/notty debacle so i don't have any strong reads so i'll probs go read over their posts later today but YEAH

 

[Nottykitten]

there are twenty players in this game, and we've only lost two townies. if we hazard a guess and say there's ~5 mafia and ~3 third parties, then we still have ~10 townies left, which is a fine position to be in on day one. we're miles away from a mylo/lylo so this is argument doesn't help anyone except notty by trying to fear-monger. it doesn't even work as an argument to lynch me since notty being confirmed by inf hinges on the assumption that i'm town anyway, so there's no lynch where we don't risk mislynching.

Last game (your game) on day 3 we had had 1 Mafia lynch and 1 mislynch and nontown already outnumbered the town day 3 so with 3 potential kills per night we shouldnt take our wiggle room for granted.

typing out the first point also made me wonder why on earth notty outed herself today with only one guilty. in a setup this large, especially one where you weren't in any great danger of being lynched at any point in time, wouldn't you want to get at least one more report? even if was an inno that's miles more useful (plus it might have helped you work out your sanity before you started a bandwagon on another town pr)

I wanted to out because I had a guilty report and Mafia had no way of killing me specifically so the best thing I could do was give the town my report.

If you want to talk random claims point the finger at Inf tbh. Also dont forget I didnt start a bandwagon on a town PR I started a bandwagon on an unknown player at said time.

 

[Mooglie]

also about the serial killer targetting through name swap mechanics (assuming the three kills were mafia, serial killer and town vig):

after i claimed non-vanilla yesterday it's quite likely that i got targeted by either mafia or the serial killer last night, and according to inf's claim notty was targeted by the mafia meaning that the serial killer probably attacked me but then due to name swap mechanics it landed on dess (i cant see a reason why SK/vig would focus on dess) & i feel like it is more likely that town vig attacked inf since no offense but you were quite susp day 0 and maybe in a deception game the vig HAS to attack someone everynight? idk its just usually unlikely that vig would try and kill someone n1 and then obviously due to name swap mechanics that landed up on TWG. so in my opinion its likely the serial killer doesnt get a free pass through name swap mechanics :shrug:

 

[Nottykitten]

Now we get on to the real advantages. With a mass player role name claim, we could actually lynch properly and for who we actually want, instead of being restricted to a certain number of players. This helps the town massively as a town's best weapon in mafia is the lynch. Our PRs could also actually choose who they wanted to visit as well instead of a blind stab in the dark. The benefits of this are pretty self explanatory.

So basically, a mass player role name claim gives information both to the mafia and the town but I think it is a lot more beneficial to the town.
I think we should mass role claim. (Please point out if I've missed as an obvious disadvantage or mechanic here as I've read most of this game on my phone and have been quite confused in some places)

But would it really help us? We dont even know who to lynch there is 0 reason to massclaim flavour names unless we can agree on someone to lynch that we dont already know the name of.