Reinstating the 2x2x2 Rule

[RaneofPane]

I made a post in the announcement thread about the rule changes about a week ago, but after thinking about it for a bit I realised it's probably a better idea to post this in the suggestions forum. I've taken my post from that thread and just reworded parts and added a few details in. Apologies for any spelling/grammar mistakes, I've never been very good with those.

I really think that the rule that any human in a hiding spot had to keep it 2x2x2 blocks should be reinstated. I feel that the current situation allows for far too many "cheap" spots. As an example, I'll use the map dinnertime. This is a map which I'd say leans towards the pro zombie side, but after looking around for less than a minute, I was able to find a spot where I was able to win a round as the final human for five minutes. It wasn't that the spot was creative, and it wasn't that it was difficult to get to, it was simply because the only way to find the spot was to look directly at it to see my name. A similar thing happened right after that round on the map derailed. Had the 2x2x2 rule still been in effect, I wouldn't have been able to survive those rounds in either of those spots as in order to make them 2x2x2 I would have had to have made them much more obvious. I'm not the only one either.

Over the last week I've noticed quite a few people using spots like this. They're not in an area where you might stumble across them by accident, they're simply in spots where the only way to find them is to find their name while scanning around. This isn't the same as scanning for names underground, that's a situation where you're actively looking for names.

There are plenty of spots availible even when you need to keep your hiding spot 2x2x2. Maps like sunspots and pandoras_box are already very easy to survive. When you add the ability to hide in 1x1x2 holes it unbalances these maps even more.

I also don't quite understand the arguement that the game is better because it makes it easier for less experienced players to survive. Getting better at the game so it gradually gets easier to survive has always been one of the things about this game that I really liked. Making it easier to survive doesn't make the game any better, it just takes out some of the satisfaction of winning a round.

As for the confusion over what defines an open hole, I think part of the confusion comes from the fact that it's never really been properly defined anyway. If that could happen, then I think that this would no longer be a problem. On the subject of confusion, something else I saw in the other thread that I really liked was Maxyz's idea for dealing with some of the confusion over the wording of the rule.

I agree with Rane;
What about changing the text "No holes smaller than 2x2x2 are allowed" that seemed so vague, to
"Closed hiding holes have to be at least the size of 2x2x2" ?
I think that would be a simple solution.

I could go on and on, but I'll try and keep it this short. The 2x2x2 needs to come back. It being gone is having a negative impact on gameplay, it's making it easier to survive rounds when it's already relitavely simple for a decent player to survive fairly frequently.

 

[Swate]

I agree that the looser size restriction allows for less creativity.

However I don't see why people wouldn't be looking for names above ground. I look for names around me constantly, regardless of where I vertically am. I think it'll just take some time for people to incorporate above-ground name-scanning into their technique.

 

[JKangaroo]

I feel the 2x2x2 rule should only be reinstated on certain maps.
Pretty much all of your examples are large, 128x128x128 sized or larger maps. Large maps are indeed, quite hard to find, and win, as the Zombie team, just be the sheer amount of land you have to cover and destroy just to reach any player. A lot of larger maps also have small, cheap spots that you won't normally find as a Zombie player unless you know the maps fairly well and hide in those spots often.
Take frostbite for example: There are countless hidden water-filled holes and spots covered by "snow"(wool) that people can hide in, and it makes it even harder without the 2x2x2 rule, so I do agree with you to a point that the rule should be brought back.

However: Zombies has really, at least from my experience, never had any real problems with hiding spots when there was no 2x2x2 rule. Even if there was some problems that people raised: I felt that when these players hid in the small, player sized holes, it improved me, personally, as a player, and made me better at it.
You do gain skills that make you a better player. You brought up that players can only find others when they occasionally spot their name through the blocks. I don't find this that terrible, I actually find it the opposite. Again: referring to this giving the player skill, you become more trained to look for these names when searching for humans in maps, and you become keenly aware of where much of these players are.
Take maps like derailed, original, pokemonstadium, mines, and other maps that have large undergrounds or portions of the map just filled with blocks like dirt that take awhile to find humans in. Its on maps like these that a skill like finding a person, especially when in a player-sized hole, is useful.
---
You can also guess to a degree where a person most likely would be hiding. Many maps have walls in them, and many players would hide in a 1x1x1 in the corners of these walls to fully enclose themselves from view. Players caught on and eventually it was hard to survive in map corners.
---
I also feel 2x2x2 holes very much restricted places to hide in, as they would make some hiding places quite obvious and would ruin the spot you were hiding in. This also counts for restricting unique and creative hiding spots--- even though it is still possible to do with open or closed 2x2x2 hiding spots.

And honestly, the 2x2x2 rule was, in my opinion, the most warned rule, and you would always find people in non-2x2x2 holes and a lot of the time they don't entirely listen to you in the chat. This forced you (at least, this is what I did), to teleport to different players many times just to see if they were following that specific rule: and in doing so, you were not paying as much attention to questions in chat, or watching over the map from the sky / etc for people who are breaking rules otherwise that was not associated to the 2x2x2 rule. Now that it was lifted for testing, you have much more time to watch for more dramatic/drastic rule breaking, such a pillars, spleefing, etc. Yes, I think that would be how I would say the 2x2x2 rule was: It was not as drastic and not that game breaking, and ate up a lot of time.

Yes, I know and understand most these arguments are more personally involved and does not entirely have a "real" point with constant facts, and etc, but I do feel they can be legitimate in what I am saying about the rule.
We should not entirely restrict where and how someone wants to hide in the game. If they find a hiding spot that works for them, and lets them have the best experience and fun in the game, then we shouldn't stop them entirely, just "advise" them in a way.

So again, it would be better if we only enforced this rule more on larger maps, such as some 128x128x128 and larger. Not all maps are bad in regard to their hiding spots, and if I continue with this statement, I'm just going to ramble on basically on what I stated already above, so I will stop here.
That's all I really have to say for now on the matter, lengthy post for a lengthy topic.
-JKangaroo

NOTE: The rules are still in a trial stage right? And this has only been implemented recently, so anything can change, and I guess a thread like this will possibly either keep the rules as is, or revert partially back to what it once was.

 

[soapless]

The point of the 2x2x2 rule IS to restrict spots, there needs to be a time when players should decide whether they want to run or hide. With the 2x2x2 rule gone, hiding is much easier to pull off than running.

 

[Chillingworth]

I like the subtraction of this rule. Why? First of all, because it's the rule that most new players seem to not understand. This takes away the confusion.

Secondly, I think that the subtraction of this rule allows for more clever hiding spots that were previously not used. Think about it; with this rule taken away, people are starting to use spots that haven't been used before, so zombies aren't quite as keen to look in those areas. With the old 2x2x2 rule, there were only that many hiding places that were efficient enough to win - let's be honest, we all know a 'pro' hiding spot on certain maps that plenty of other players know. This is your chance to find new, cool hiding spots and I think the subtraction of this rule makes the gameplay more lively.

 

[Hockeyfan1852]

There was a "cheap" spot I found on portal 2 and I won every time in. In my opinion the subtraction of this rule makes the game easier to win and harder for zombies. It also means less running and action on maps this is why I think the rule should be added again.

 

[ZombiePineapple]

I have to agree with everything Chill and others have said. Seeing as how these new rules on a trial for a week, but that hiding rule was just too confusing for me and others to understand especially new players who are looking to become a part of the zombie server. So having the 2x2x2 rule back in place would certainly help new players.

But as into what JK said. On larger maps its very easy to win, because of so much space for zombies to destroy or cover. And will just let humans easily win due to the map size. That is all I have to say on this topic.

 

[Vatumok]

Yes, now the 2x2x2 is not there anymore there are a lot more hiding spots than before, and in my opinion that's not a bad thing. Almost everyone ran or hid in secrets because especially the current maps that don't really support hiding. People are getting used to running being the standard, and think it's weird if people can survive when hiding. which doesn't have to be true.
Before you really couldn't find a decent hidingspot without getting found immediately, and so you were forced to run.

Hiding in secrets was and still is easier to survive than normal hiding, even without the 2x2x2 rule. I find it strange that so many people complain how it's too easy for humans to survive while hiding now while there are so many secrets on maps. I find that people should get rewarded for finding a good hiding spot, and even without the 2x2x2 that's pretty hard, getting a good spot should make you win more often than hiding in a lame secret.

If it needs to be made harder for humans, then secrets should be removed first because they are easy and more effective hiding spots.

 

[JWB101197]

I like the removal of the rule. Why? Because it opens up a whole new dimension of hiding spots that previously were illegal.

The Zombie server used to not be about running. You would hide, that was your survival tactic, and running was a last resort. We want to encourage people to hide! And what better way to do this than allow them to hide wherever they want! (So long as they're legal)

 

[Dess]

While I was originally against the removal of the rule I am actually all for it now. As it was said above the 2x2x2 rule was the hardest for newer players to understand and there was much confusion with it as to diffrent interpratations of the rule. Some players would classify it as any hiding spot that was 8 blocks long. Then there was the visible part of that rule, not everybody knew exactly what was classified as visible. Without this rule there is much less worries or confusion with this. We want to try to make it as easy for new players to play as we possibly can.

Now to the ingame factor of this. Players already have gotten use to the removal of the rule and are now scanning the underground(while limited) for hiding people instead of just above ground. Many players (myself included) are horrible at running and now we have limitless ways to hide. As for it being "cheaper" I dont see it. People are just going to have to get used to there being many spots that players can hide in and eventually those spots will get discovered and will no longer be good. This is just my main opinion on this currently I will try to write more when I think of it.

 

[Arcius]

I'm not a big zombie player, but when I did play for awhile I found that a lot of the maps that have defined walls were extremely easy to make a 1x1x2 hole in the corner of the map and have no one find you. But this was also back when the 2^3 rule was in effect, so the one time I tried it I was found because of the modifications I had to make. Even then it took a decent amount of time to find me. In short, I believe the 2^3 dimensions rule is fair and balanced. Without this rule all the zombies would have to check every single corner that anyone could get in to, which makes things a little too easy for humans... in my opinion, of course.

If it needs to be made harder for humans, then secrets should be removed first because they are easy and more effective hiding spots.

Lava did this to prevent players getting easy cookies, so I fully agree with this if the 2^3 rule is not kept.

 

[ZombiePineapple]

I'm just going to get my final opinion in it. But if secrets make it easy to hide? Then isn't the game of zombies basically a game of hide and seek and then tag all mixed together? So if hiding in secrets is easy, I do support the idea of the 2x2x2 rule being taken out. But removing the secrets, can change the gameplay. And will take some time to get used to.

But I am also against removing the secrets because majority of the players know where they are and they aren't 100% safe to hide in. The only time, some people might win in them is because some players might not know where they are. If you do remove the secrets, that will involve a lot more hiding and running. And another thing, another good thing about secrets is sometimes the first zombie is chosen in there and those hiding in the secret are done for.

But there are those that are completely obvious and can be a strain for players to find, so that is where basically secrets can be removed but it would make the game a little bit to easy for players to be found and to simple. So it would be annoying for players, who hide in them to be found so easily and tagged. So, basically removing secrets can be a good or bad thing if it goes to removing secrets.

 

[RaneofPane]

Yes, now the 2x2x2 is not there anymore there are a lot more hiding spots than before, and in my opinion that's not a bad thing. Almost everyone ran or hid in secrets because especially the current maps that don't really support hiding. People are getting used to running being the standard, and think it's weird if people can survive when hiding. which doesn't have to be true.

Almost everyone ran or hid in secrets? I have to disagree with you there. I've always seen plenty of people hiding in regular spots, from simple 2x2x2 holes in the dirt areas to well hidden spots inside buildings. That's never changed. People frequently won while hiding with the 2x2x2 rule. As for people "getting used to running being the standard" I honestly have to say I've never seen anybody even hint that they thought this. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but even if some people think this, it's certainly not a widespread belief. As for people thinking "it's weird if people can survive when hiding" I'd just like this say I don't even know who could think that. Nearly every regular I see on the server uses hiding spots. Some obviously don't use them all the time, but I'd say there would be very few who didn't consider it a valid method of surviving.

Before you really couldn't find a decent hidingspot without getting found immediately, and so you were forced to run.

Again, I disagree. The people who were found quickly were the people who dug a few blocks into the ground and tried to win while sitting in the middle of the map. That's not going to change no matter what the rule is. Those who thought about their hiding spots and hid carefully tended to do much better. Of course, you're not always going to win even if you hide carefully, but it doesn't matter how you play - you're never going to win every round regardless of how you play.

Hiding in secrets was and still is easier to survive than normal hiding, even without the 2x2x2 rule. I find it strange that so many people complain how it's too easy for humans to survive while hiding now while there are so many secrets on maps. I find that people should get rewarded for finding a good hiding spot, and even without the 2x2x2 that's pretty hard, getting a good spot should make you win more often than hiding in a lame secret.

If it needs to be made harder for humans, then secrets should be removed first because they are easy and more effective hiding spots.

I thought a bit about this, and I'm going to get a little off track here, but basically, there are two types of secret (in terms of how risky it is to hide there). The first is the (what I would believe to be) more traditional secret. It's usually very small, and difficult to get away from any zombie that gets in. These work well because it's a risk to try and hide there. Once these spots are well known (which doesn't take very long) you haven't got such a great chance of survival. If even one zombie knows where it is and decides to check it, you're dead, no chance of survival. The second (and from what I've been seeing from map submissions, one that's become fairly popular recently) isn't so good. They're often long passages, and they usually tend to have a difficult jumpcourse at the end that a newer player will struggle with. Some also have ways to escape quite easily. Personally, if the latter type could be removed or made more dangerous, then perhaps secrets wouldn't be such an easy win.

While it may be cheap that people use secrets like that, that's an issue with secrets, not regular hiding spots. Making it possible to hide in more places doesn't take away the cheapness of secrets. Hiding in a regular spot was fine before. Anything other than digging a hole in the ground and sitting in it gave you a chance to survive. Again, people weren't going to secrets because regular spots were bad, they were going to them because it just made it easier. Also, I don't run much, but from what I've seen and heard people don't tend to run because hiding is too difficult, they do it because they personally find it less exciting.

As it was said above the 2x2x2 rule was the hardest for newer players to understand and there was much confusion with it as to diffrent interpratations of the rule. Some players would classify it as any hiding spot that was 8 blocks long.

That's something else that was never properly defined. If your hiding spot isn't 2x2x2 or open, then how many blocks does it need to be? As I mentioned before when I was talking about open hiding spots, if a Director could define what would be acceptable then some of the confusion concerning that would disappear.

I won't respond to everyone, as that would take too long, but one thing I've seen a few times but Vatu didn't mention is that a few people mentioned that new players found the rule "confusing", but I don't think that's the case. As much as we'd like them to, a large number of players just don't read the rules. They hide in their spot, 1x2x2, and then a staff member comes along and tells them to keep it 2x2x2, usually demonstrating how big to keep it. The same thing happens with unreachables and pillarers, they break the rule, usually due to ignorance of the rules the first time and a staff member assists them. Almost everyone catches on instantly, just follow the rules. The ones who didn't tended to be the ones who ignored the rules completely. The rule is no more confusing than any others. Other than that, I think I've covered most things.

 

[ReyvnNova]

I think the rule should stay removed. I barely run into any humans in boxes by accident; rather I scout their names out. Sure people will be able to find spots that are harder to find, but zombies can just learn to look up as well as down. I have survived many times in open wall spots just because they barely look up. On the whole it allows for more human choice and those with intelligent choices will have better luck surviving. It also means zombies have to be more aware and on the ball, but it'll keep things interesting. Changes give a server life.

As a side note I think secrets are dull and should be removed. Mildly contradictory as I use them myself, but a good secret means a near guaranteed victory depending on if any regulars are zombies or not. It requires no thought or imagination, hence creating a dull place to hide.

Imo.

 

[Jowe]

As a player who is admittedly loves making creative hiding places , the removal of the 2x2x2 rule makes my heart sad </3.

 

[Mccuish]

i'm the type of player that loves hiding underground

 

[Jowe]

I am not going to touch the is it easier for humans to win argument.

But I will say - The heart behind the original rule was to not allow people to hide in 1x1x2 size holes. Z being 2 of course.

Actually the rule, before the 2x2x2 rule was - You cannot hide in a 1x1x2. 1x1x2 hiding is cheap which adds a frustrating aspect to the game.

This is much different then hiding in a secret for anyone can learn the location of a secret, and that actually adds to the game. Players look forward to finding secrets. This is an example of something that adds enjoyment to the game. ( Yes there is still a frustration in not knowing where a secret is, but that is countered by the future hope of finding the secret. This is a great aspect of zombie.)

Scanning for someone in obscure non-visible 1x1x2 is an example of something that makes the game frustrating. ( In this scenario there is only the frustration, there is no balance because there is no real reward for finding the player)

See the difference?

P.S. All forms of hiding will lead to some type of frustration, but most have a balance. I've discussed the balance to secrets. There is also a balance for creative hiding. Creative hiders will cause players to be frustrated because they are not easily found, but the balance is that the creative hider is using skill. This is a reward for the creative hider, and there is a reward for the zombie as well. You get a great sense of accomplishment thwarting a creative hider. This makes the frustration worth it. Making our zombie gameplay very addictive.

End note: Encouragement of an unbalanced gameplay mechanic will always be a bad thing.