Accepted [CTF] Twickel Castle

[HKCaper]

[BCOLOR=transparent]Map Name: [/BCOLOR][BCOLOR=transparent]Twickel Castle[/BCOLOR]
[BCOLOR=transparent]Map Authors:[/BCOLOR][BCOLOR=transparent] HKCaper[/BCOLOR]
[BCOLOR=transparent]Game Type:[/BCOLOR] [BCOLOR=transparent]Capture the Flag[/BCOLOR]
[BCOLOR=transparent]Map Worldborder:[/BCOLOR] 65 (map is not square)
[BCOLOR=transparent]Download: [/BCOLOR][BCOLOR=transparent]/warp TwickelCastle[/BCOLOR]
[BCOLOR=transparent]Round Time: [/BCOLOR][BCOLOR=transparent]600[/BCOLOR]
[BCOLOR=transparent]Colours of the Teams: [/BCOLOR][BCOLOR=transparent]Red and (Light) Blue[/BCOLOR]
[BCOLOR=transparent]Fall damage:[/BCOLOR][BCOLOR=transparent] No fall damage, just in case[/BCOLOR]
[BCOLOR=transparent]Can drown: [/BCOLOR][BCOLOR=transparent]Yes (if you wanna drown yourself in the fountains go ahead)[/BCOLOR]

[BCOLOR=transparent]Spawn Locations: [/BCOLOR]
[BCOLOR=transparent]It is located inside the castle:[/BCOLOR]

[BCOLOR=transparent]Flag Locations: [/BCOLOR]
It is located at the front of the castle:

That is it -__-

 

[Unusual_Dood]

Before I can give my opinion I need to know what range the laser guns will have.

 

[SalientGorilla]

Before I can give my opinion I need to know what range the laser guns will have.

-Will edit in vote when I've found this out-

 

[HKCaper]

Before I can give my opinion I need to know what range the laser guns will have.

I'm not absolutely sure what a good range would be, but I think 20 blocks should be about right. (Any better ideas are welcome)

 

[Iggish]

Ok hk thanks for the submission. Before I make my mind up on the map, there are quite a few things which in my opinion need to be changed in order to make the game more enjoyable.

Spoiler: Thing 1

Spoiler: screenshot

I think the spawns on this map will become very irritating for the players as they have to circumvent the nether fences each time they spawns instead of just running through. I would recommend making a little hole so it doesn't obstruct gameplay that much.
On the topic of spawns, there are quite a few problems with the exits from spawn. The main exit through the iron doors would get camped the hell out of, I would recommend opening up the doorway there so there is less camping and it becomes more open

Spoiler: screenshot

There is also a problem with the side exits. You have added barrier blocks over the castle walls which afaik are to stop the spawn camping and spawn killing which may occur. However, I think this actually hinders gameplay. The players which come out are actually quite far away from spawn compared to other CtF maps on the server. I would recommend removing the barrier blocks and adding jump pads so the defending team can leap onto the wall.

Spoiler: screenshots

Spoiler: Thing 2

The map is extremely open. I can't help but feel that it will end up a bit like the bridge on zap, where people are shooting at each other just out of range and it becomes infuriating. The players then come nearer to try kill each other and they shoot just before they come into range. This is quite annoying and I can easily see it happening on this map. There is virtually no cover through the middle. It is incredible how easy it would be for people with the flag to return it. In my opinion the best CtF maps are the maps that after a person takes the flag, they can be caught up with. As a whole, the middle is too exposed. I would recommend making some parkour jumps or adding a lot of cover or something to make it harder for the flag carrier to make it back.

Spoiler: Screenshots

I think this map would actually work really well with inversed flags like Sea Spray Rig used to have. It would suit the layout of the map and also remove the problem of the flag carriers being able to run freely as they would have to try to run at the enemy castle and get to the flag, giving the map a siege and defensive quality which CtF does not have at the moment.

Because of the flaws I have pointed out but also the promise that the map has, I will go with a 0

 

[HKCaper]

Firstly, I want to thank you for your feedback Iggish.

Secondly, there are two things you said I really like and would implement in the map in a heartbeat. These are the side exists adjustments and the idea of having inversed flags. By removing the barrier blocks and adding the jump pads, it will also be easier for defending team to get on the wall (where first they had to get to the other side and go up the ladders). I also think the inversed flags would be an amazing idea (something I personally enjoyed on Sea Spray Rig). I agree with what you said, and also think this would fit the vision I had for the map originally.

Lastly, I do have some minor issues with the things you said about the spawn and the front exit. The fences I added to the spawn were to make sure defending teams could not leave the spawn to quickly, but I do see how they could get annoying (hence if you and others see that it would be no problem to remove the fences, I will neither have difficulties with it. The front exit is more of an issue to me, because I do not want to take away of the aesthetics of the castle. Spawn killing/camping is frowned uppon (which is phrased ligthly), and therefore I do not expect this to be a major issue. There are spawns and other maps (particulrly Prison Camp), which can easily be camped, but where it mostly does not happen. (Or did you mean that defending teams would camp that spot?)

I hope you are mostly satisfied with my response, and I look forward to reading more replies.

 

[Comp]

Thanks for the submission, I'll quickly run through what I think needs to be fixed in the map.

Firstly, I want to address the water in the centre of the map. You currently have 3 ways across - the two bridges, the centre wool area or swimming. First of all, I think that the bridges should be made 1 or 2 blocks wider because right now it would be a little difficult to avoid shots without running into the wall.
Next, I think the ducks should be moved a little to allow people to use them to jump over the water without swimming. Right now, its pretty hard to make the 3x1 jumps and you end up dropping into the water where you die pretty easily. As iggy said, the centre area is a little open, so you could try adding a few obstacles for people to hide behind. In the other areas of the map there is plenty cover though so thats good.

Next, a few miscellaneous changes. Firstly, the the jump pads on either side of spawn I think could be made a little larger, just because sometimes people can stuck on 1x1 pads (e.g. on Snowfight). I think this spot could also be a little OP potentially:

Spoiler

Can snipe through the corner of the stair right into the centre

Lastly, I think the ladders going up to the flag could be problematic - it takes a little while to climb the ladders where players are very vulnerable. Depending on how it goes it may be ok, but one suggestion I have is to mirror the jump pads on the other side of the wall. That way, players can get up fairly easily to take the flag.

Other than that, it seems a decent map. I think if I accept it we'll want a relatively low player count for the map as it could get pretty clustered with a lot of players online. I also want to take this moment to disagree with iggy:

I think this map would actually work really well with inversed flags like Sea Spray Rig used to have

Personally I don't think it would. Players have to learn which maps are normal and which ones are inverted which just makes everything more confusing. I'd rather keep all the maps the same for consistency.

 

[Guest35486]

Hi HK, thanks for the submission!

As I am slightly late in making this response, I would like to say I did see various stages of the map since it was first posted. I'm glad to see that you've taken the feedback and made adjustments to the map to improve it. After running around the map, I don't see any major issues with design or gameplay. The map is nicely built and has barrier blocks for areas that are not meant for players.

I do have to agree with Comp for the flags. I was personally very confused by the inverted flags when I first started playing CTF.

A small concern of mine is that the flag carrier will have trouble reaching their own side after capturing the flag since the wall and ground are pretty open. However, this may end up working out once it's tested on the server.

After seeing all the adjustments you've made, I'm going with a +1.

Also, uh, what happened to the one of the flags on the roof?

Spoiler

 

[Unusual_Dood]

Hello Hk, thanks for your submission. First of all, I want to say that I like the design of the map, and the castles look very nice! However, the middle part looks unfinished and rushed, especially with the big vanilla spruce trees and the river.

I also believe there is some potencial with the castles.

Spoiler: Castle issues

First of all, I middle outrance out of spawn is too small, and should be atleast 5 blocks wide and 3 tall maybe even bigger.

Spoiler: Main outrance

Spoiler: Example of my idea

I also think the side outrances are a bit weird. Why not only have a gate directly to the outside, instead of the jump pads. Also if people want to get up on the walls they could use stairs.

Spoiler: Side outrances

Spoiler: Example of my idea

Another thing i would like you to change is the flag area. I think it is too small, and I think it would be nicer with just a little bit bigger. It also gets space for another route up on each side(the parkour), not only the 4 ladder routes.

Spoiler

Spoiler: Example of my idea

It would also be nice to fast get up on the walls for enemies(not only ladders), with some stairs. If you do this, having the ladder routes should be fine, which i personally have no issues with.

Spoiler: Example of my idea

I also think that having the walls 1 and 1,5 could be easy to camp. I think you instead could move it a half block down. I know it is a small change, but I think its quite important for the gameplay.

Spoiler

Spoiler: Example of my idea

These changes does not take long time. Took me about 5 minutes to do. I think they all are necessary for creating a better flow.

So when that is said, we need to go back to the middle part of the map. I think it is too open and when you are on the bridge you cannot really dogde. I think it would be best to redo the middle part entirely. If you could terraform the middle part just a little bit, like for instance like on Trenches, it would not only be easier to add obstacles like trees and stone but also look very good to the castles. If you need help with how to do this, ask me.

Okay, I know I sound very strict, but I think most of the hardwork in the map already is done and it has much potencial. The map is nice but I believe there should not be put very much time into, what i would call, making this map much better. Currently I am between 0 and 1+ .

 

[HKCaper]

Thanks Unu (and Claire) for responding,

Let's begin with the comments on the castle. I agree with some points, but disagree with other points. I agree with the front exit and the flag area being a bit cramped, so I have made changes to that already. I also lowered the walls to and made some minor changes to the ways up to flag area from the walls, to make it slightly better accessible.

However, I do not intend on changing the side exits, personally I like jump pads > stairs. Also, I think making more gates and/or stairs on either sides would take away of the appeal of a castle and seems odd (from a appearance standpoint). Same goes for making the walls wider.

Let's continue on the middle part of the map, which has been the struggle point during the entire build process. As it is right now, is as I had visioned it before hand, with trees on both sides and a gap in the middle where teams could have an epic stand-off. However I do see how this could be an issue in CTF, because you will simply get shot from afar. I have made added some pane structure (which I kinda liked) to sort of fix this issue, but I do not know if it is enough. One thing I do not want to do is terraform the entire things, because I want to stay close to my original idea (and not remake trenches/Prison camp/etc.). I will think some more about some minor changes.

Crossing the water has proven to be a point of interest as well, especially the bridges (which I personally have no problems with). I see that it could be hard at some point to cross the water without getting shot, but I think that it will only turn into an issue when there are ~10 or more players on the map. Plus the ducks provide help to them who seek to cross, and I figured out you dont have walk all along the bridge to cross (you can jump off the side immediately and get to the other side).

I hope my response is satisfactory, and I look forward to hearing your opinion.

 

[Comp]

Thanks for making some of the changes we recommended on the map. I think there still may some issues with the map, but I think the best way to find those out is to let it play out on the server. The map is now loaded, so yell at me if I've made any mistakes in importing.
-Accepted