SMP Changelog

[Malcovent]

I'm going to use this thread to compile a list of the current state of play of proposed & existing tweaks to the SMP gameplay mechanics. The aim is to provide a space feedback, suggestions and concerns regarding these tweaks, as well as to let you know where we're at with what is arguably the longest part of the Development Process.

Features not yet implemented may not necessarily be developed prior to release, building decay for example will be complex and, is not necessary until some time into the servers lifespan, so development of that will be held off until post-release. Nor do we promise that these will be the final features, some such as food Rot and Building decay are inherently tricky, and may have to be changed out for a different feature if we cannot find a way to implement them cleanly.

Implemented/Not Yet Implemented/In Progress

+ Armour/Weapon Tweaks
--+ Diamond Armour
-----+ Durability lowered to be closer to Gold Armour
--+ Iron Armour
-----+ Runspeed when in any iron lowered significantly (1.75 rather than 2.0)
--+ Leather & No Armour
-----+ Runspeed when in leather or no armour raised significantly (3.0 rather than 2.0)
--+ Gold Armour & Weapons
-----+ Additional enchantment level (+1) added on enchant for all enchants.
+ Food Tweaks
--+ Farming
-----+ If too many animals occupy the surrounding area on breeding, the baby will die on birth.
--+ Consumption
-----+ Food will rot if held after a period of two days, making it unedible.
-----+ Hunger will now deplete far slower than usual
+ Misc
-----+ Buildings that are deemed 'abandoned' after x weeks will slowly begin to decay
-----+ Introduction of a 'Mystic well' style feature, throw items in, get items out. The more expensive the items you throw in, the higher the chance of a unique/rare item out.

 

[Notme]

Hmm building decay works only when chunks are loaded, as it seems like map modification - I played with Mystcraft mod, that makes worlds fall apart faster or slower depending on symbols used to create said world. You could always move forward to fresh chunks, where decay didn't hit it yet.
So how single house, that is in middle in nowhere is going to decay, if no one nearby? Will it be automatically "griefed", when someone loads chunk, where building is standing after 3 weeks? Or there will be something like chunk loader, that scans whole map every some time?

 

[Malcovent]

Hmm building decay works only when chunks are loaded, as it seems like map modification - I played with Mystcraft mod, that makes worlds fall apart faster or slower depending on symbols used to create said world. You could always move forward to fresh chunks, where decay didn't hit it yet.
So how single house, that is in middle in nowhere is going to decay, if no one nearby? Will it be automatically "griefed", when someone loads chunk, where building is standing after 3 weeks? Or there will be something like chunk loader, that scans whole map every some time?

Hard to give a certain answer until we've sat down and discussed how it'll be implemented but yes, the initial idea is that when a player enters into a chunk, it'll do some hasty lookups for player blocks in the area and perform a random replace on those blocks.

 

[Hunter]

What defines a "building" for decay, roughly? Would this apply to all player-modified blocks?

Also it seems as if it'd be more streamlined if rather than the baby being instakilled, the animals themselves were prevented from going into breeding mode if a count exceeding the threshold was detected within a range of the animal attempting to breed. This would give a notification to the player.

As for the food rot, is that two Minecraft day/night cycles, or 48 hours irl?

 

[Malcovent]

What defines a "building" for decay, roughly? Would this apply to all player-modified blocks?

Also it seems as if it'd be more streamlined if rather than the baby being instakilled, the animals themselves were prevented from going into breeding mode if a count exceeding the threshold was detected within a range of the animal attempting to breed. This would give a notification to the player.

As for the food rot, is that two Minecraft day/night cycles, or 48 hours irl?

The decay plugin won't begin full development/feedback until post release (so asto not hold up the schedule). The idea thusfar is all player based (not modified) blocks, and to keep a record of playertime in those areas - if no 'consistent' player stays in the area for a specified amount of time per month (handful of hours tops), to begin the decay process.

We've discussed feasibility of it and, I believe it's doable - albeit complicated.


Regarding the baby instakilling of baby animals, agreed it may be a more streamlined way to handle it but, realistically it's six and two threes. No point wasting development time to achieve the same feauture.

Food rot is irl days. Currently all food will contain its expiration date in the item description. You will not be able to stack food with a different expiry date - naturally.

 

[Friendy]

The decay plugin won't begin full development/feedback until post release (so asto not hold up the schedule). The idea thusfar is all player based (not modified) blocks, and to keep a record of playertime in those areas - if no 'consistent' player stays in the area for a specified amount of time per month (handful of hours tops), to begin the decay process.

We've discussed feasibility of it and, I believe it's doable - albeit complicated.


Regarding the baby instakilling of baby animals, agreed it may be a more streamlined way to handle it but, realistically it's six and two threes. No point wasting development time to achieve the same feauture.

Food rot is irl days. Currently all food will contain its expiration date in the item description. You will not be able to stack food with a different expiry date - naturally.

If food rot is irl days, how does it work exactly? Does it count the minutes based on a regular clock, or do you have to have a total 2 days played with that food in your inventory for it to rot? Otherwise it is quite unfair if you cannot play for a couple days and you come back to find your only food is gone.

As for diamond armour not receiving damage from enchantments, does this mean the player does not receive damage from let's say Sharpness, or does it mean enchantments that do progressive damage like fire don't damage the armour now?

 

[Mastersten]

The decay plugin won't begin full development/feedback until post release (so asto not hold up the schedule). The idea thusfar is all player based (not modified) blocks, and to keep a record of playertime in those areas - if no 'consistent' player stays in the area for a specified amount of time per month (handful of hours tops), to begin the decay process.

Won't this cause lag since it logs blockdata on the entire map? (not sure if this is the right place to ask)

 

[Jolterino]

I think not having enchantments damage diamond armour is a bad idea. The only use for enchantments would be killing new players then.

Also how about a heroes type plugin?

 

[Malcovent]

Won't this cause lag since it logs blockdata on the entire map? (not sure if this is the right place to ask)

Mastersten

Potentially. This is the biggest hurdle to overcome when this is implemented, it's something i've been in discussion with a few devs about and we've agreed on a few ideas to try, but i think it can be achieved with minimal impact in one form or another. The block decay plugin will be something we bring up more post-release since, it wouldn't come into play anyway until some time post release, hence i'd rather not delay SMP to implement a plugin that won't see use until 3-4 weeks in.​

I think not having enchantments damage diamond armour is a bad idea. The only use for enchantments would be killing new players then.

Also how about a heroes type plugin?

Jolteon42
Regarding the first point concerning diamond armour.

The hope is to avoid diamond armour being the 'go-to' armour, and instead present it as a more situational armour to use against more advanced combatants. To achieve this we're going to try lowering the durability significantly (closer to gold armour) so that it's no longer feasible to throw on a suit of diamond and wear it 24/7, and as part of the rebalance we'll give it significant speed increase & enchantment durability. Meaning that realistically, you want to reserve your diamond armour for advanced players, rather than using it against every new player you find.​

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- Yes, as a result weapon enchantments are only realistically useful against new players (though given the chance of diamond armour breaking mid-combat, and the fact the enchantment immunity only comes with a full suit, you might find that it is actually still benefitial to attack them with an enchanted weapon if you have one to hand) - but given that most of the people with well enchanted weapons are advanced players, and that the biggest threat to them is usually other advanced players (who will sport diamond gear), i would like to think this instead devalues weapon enchantments significantly.​

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That said we're having a little trouble finding a feasible way to implemented the enchantment immunity, we may have to find a different way to buff diamond armor but, we'll discuss that when we hit that bump in the road.​

With regard to the second point

We've already stated that for the initial release we're keeping our primary objective as gameplay rebalances rather than feature additions. This isn't because we hate features, but because we believe that should be the primary focus. Once we have a server that we're comfortable is stable and the majority of players are happy with, we'll look towards the gradual introduction of new features and new RPG elements.​

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Friendy
Regarding your first point,

Any food in any container will rot, based on irl days (currently 2 days). When food is first picked up, it will be stamped with an expiration date based on +2 days, this will appear on its description, once you open a containing containing food with an expiration at or beyond the specified date, it will change to rotten meat.​

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This is specifically to stop people hoarding food for a rainy day, as stated to balance this off, your hunger will deteriorate slower, and people are no longer able to battery-farm animals (which historically have caused issues with a low animal spawn-rate in the island), it should hopefully mean that for new players or players that have returned after a period, finding a source of food and sustaining yourself - even after leaving for a long period should not be an issue.​

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Instead it should make running a large clan more challenging - requiring far larger farms with the clan more vulnerable to attacks on their food source. In theory anyway, naturally we can rebalance these mechanics/expiry dates until we find an equilibrium we're happy with.​

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Regarding the second point,

The idea is to nullify any and all effects (so sharpness, knockback, fire damage) to diamond armour though, as i stated to Jolteon this is currently not looking as feasible as first thought. I'm going to take another look at this next weekend and make a decision on whether to abandon that buff in favor of something else, ultimately i'd just like to see diamond armour become situational rather than the standard 'go-to' armour, if not simply to encourage people to use their diamonds elsewhere (and, we will provide alternate sources to funnel diamonds into).​

 

[Notme]

Diamond armor has toughness attribute (added in 1.9.1), it makes diamond armor relatively stronger against strong attacks. copied info that from wiki:
Armor attribute generic.armorToughness

• Damage formula is now damage = damage * ( 1 - max( defensePoints / 5, defensePoints - damage / ( 2 + toughness / 4 ) ) / 25 ), i.e. increased toughness means less armor defense point reduction from strong attacks.
• Diamond armor has toughness 2, all other armor has toughness 0. A full set of diamond armor therefore gives a toughness attribute of 8.

There are defense points for all armor except diamond: http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Armor#Defense_points -it is valid to up to 15 defense points (full set of iron armor).

Equivalent table for diamond armor would be bit complicated - too many variables - table would have to be 3D to account for toughness, but doable with full set of diamond armor.

BTW what clan plugin we will use?
Edit: I crafted nice damage calculator in Excel 2007.
http://www117.zippyshare.com/v/PwenYh1s/file.html
I think certain armour defence vaules should left untouched by enchants/toughness, and other should be touched by toughness, as only diamond armor is capable of having more than 15 units of armor protection.
Or I could simply annihilate table, and only make one place where you can input damage, armor protection (0 - 20 units), enchantment protection (0 - 20, can sum only same class of enchants) and toughness (if you have diamond armor - 0;2;4;6;8).

 

[Catcocomics]

I have a few ideas regarding armor:

*Diamond (or any) armor takes passive durability damage when worn for long periods of time.
*Diamond armor (only the armor please) cannot be enchanted with mending.
*Chain mail gets durability buff of some sort.
*Chain mail be almost readily accessible to many people.
*Take advantage of NBT things like armor that gives increased hp capacity or damage buffs.
*Give unarmored players speed increase and even better saturation.
*Give unarmored players minor jump boost and increased resistance to fall damage.

And a couple of sword things:
*special iron sword with buffed durability and faster recharge rate that can be purchased or crafted
*Lightning Sword: swings so fast that it makes you fast. Hits for 2 damage and ignores defense.

Take and Leave what ever you want

 

[Malcovent]

Just an update on this - Working on the Mystic well as of this afternoon, reasonably easy implementation versus what I thought it would be - mechanics will simply be

- Designated area that you can throw items in (naturally we'll pretty it up to look like a lovely fountain/well)​

​

- If item is thrown within area, immediately removed from game (no chance to be picked up). and value of what you've thrown is attached to your character (will dissapear if you disconnect/log off - Non persisted). Naturally the better the item (Diamond, etc.) the higher the value, the greater the chance of a good reward, you'll receive a message indicating the rough worth of the object you passed in.​

​

- /redeem command when standing near the well will then decide on what to award you from the prize pool, can range from damaging you to items that aren't even achievable via normal playing (swords that teleport you back to your bed, etc. that sort of lark), but incredibly slim odds of rewarding.​

Fully expect to have a first version in place by tonight, somewhat busy tomorrow but I'll look into sorting out the per-player chest as agreed in this thread tomorrow morning.


At that stage I need to discuss with a few people whether or not to abandon the armor nerfs/buffs or revisit them entirely (Having trouble balancing them), but by all likelihood by next weekend we'll be looking to starting Staff Apps/Preparing the map/etc. I hope this progress isn't too slow for people.

 

[Hunter]

Any reason in particular why they don't last between sessions?

 

[Malcovent]

Any reason in particular why they don't last between sessions?

To correct myself, it does persist between sessions - just not between server restarts.


Work-Output balance. Given the low occurrence of server crashes + the fact the feature takes less than a minute even if emptying out a full inventory, you'd have to be particularly unlucky to get caught out.

Could put the work in persisting the values to a file/database but, it's not worth the time/effort to do so at this point.

 

[Ceres]

Would you consider implementing the Thirst system from Solitude? Maybe tweak it to allow 30-45 minutes (instead of 10) between each drink and swimming/making contact with water refills the meter.

 

[cheatyface]

I think just reducing the durability on diamond significantly will work wonders. If it were on par with gold, it would become a bunch more situational. I'm sure you could also flatten and restrict enchants on it, so no higher than say sharp 2, and half the normal enchanting levels in a table.

Also, I'd feel a little justice if gold gear doubled in durability.

 

[Friendy]

I'm liking all of the ideas and content being added, my only fear is that if it is too overcomplicated it will turn players away, as a lot of players are either too lazy to learn the ropes or are too young to understand certain aspects that may be confusing as this happened a lot with some previous smp's where they found it too difficult to start out and know what to do.

I'm looking forward to see how this turns out however!

 

[Catcocomics]

I'm sure you could also flatten and restrict enchants on it, so no higher than say sharp 2, and half the normal enchanting levels in a table.

Hasn't Mojang nerfed player damage power enough already with the 1.9 update? Highest damage buff you can get from sharpness enchant normally is now +3 rather than +6.25, which is less than half its old power. On top of that, Strength potions only add a measly 3 damage per level rather than how it used to more than double or even triple melee damage.

I don't know how many of you mess with this stuff on a daily basis, but I'm sure that most people who do would not feel that our offensive should be nerfed much more than it already is, if at all.

I'm fine with armor being nerfed (especially diamond and its toughness thing) because even the slightest bit of armor can easily turn someone from cannon fodder into a death-machine, especially now that modern food is basically a hybrid of full release and beta foods, so it's a lot harder to get worn down if your adversary can't do a ton of damage to you.

Of course, do keep in mind that I'm the sort of person who likes to play survival minecraft with just weapons and no armor, and I may or may not be a little upset about the new update "encouraging" the usage of armor by making mobs both smarter and stronger while making players fairly weaker.

But in all seriousness, we should at least compare the maximum damage a player can do in one hit with a melee weapon in 1.8 and in 1.9:
1.8:
Base damage:
fist (1) 1
+ diamond sword (7) 8
* crit (+50%) 12 - critical hits ignore enchants and armor, but it doesn't say anything about potions... oh well.
+ sharpness 5 (6.25) 18.25 - each level here is worth 1.25
* strength 2 (+260%) 47.45
Grand total: 47.45 damage (1-shot an enderman), and you can spam click this, too.
It might be more though, since I didn't let the crit multiplier affect the potion modifier, which might possibly be the case(?)

1.9:
Base damage:
fist is ignored now, but it does 1 damage if it's not holding something with a damage modifier.
+diamond axe (9) 9
*crit (+50%) 13.5
+sharpness 5 (3) 16.5 - now level one is worth 1, and every level after is worth .5, or you may as well say each level is .5, + initial .5
+strength 2 (6) 22.5
Grand total: 22.5 damage per hit (you can just barely 1-shot an unarmored player, but only if you crit with the strength II) You also have to wait more than a second between hits, unless you use the diamond sword instead, which still has a cool-down and only hits up to 19.5.

So, let's rethink our hasty desire to nerf all the melee weapons and damage enchants that I keep seeing.
Our max damage, and especially our max DPS has shrunk by so much more than half within the last update, so I really think that if we take out levels from sharpness or something, we're really not going to do a whole lot of good.

 

[Notme]

Yep, looks like we should first make pvp test server, where you could pick any kit and any enchants you want.
It seems like some of pvp changes are not needed - or Malcovent already tested all changes to pvp in 1.9?

 

[Malcovent]

As stated in the core post, we're currently reneging on the Armour changes - for the moment. The changes were getting too sporadic/unplanned, so we'll re-approach it with a few goals in mind and handle it from that direction. I 'am' interested in balancing out Pvp, but I am fully aware that it will be hard to achieve a balance, I'll be sure to tag you all in when I put up a post this weekend re-suggesting PVP changes/armour tweaks. Thank you.

I'll let you know the exact tweaks/values when I get around to them.


Ceres - with the best of respect, I don't think this is relevant towards any of the core goals stated in the pinned post (nor do i think it would be appropriate to salvage mechanics from Solitude). It's a nice suggestion just, doesn't fit in with the core theme of suggestions thusfar. Thank you though.


Also - Small progress update

Mystic well/fountain is done, works well minus a little polish around the edges (sounds, effects, etc.). I need to carefully balance out the reward rate, also going to put in a few relics/legendary items with an insanely small drop-rate that will be, in my respective opinion, 'the shit' - items that clans will want to safeguard at all costs if they're lucky enough to get their hands on them, we'll preview one or two at earliest opportunity but, consider it a little incentive to pour heart/soul/money into the well.

I fully expect that next sitdown the well will be done, chests will take bugger all time and we can start focusing on beta dates/getting the map together/the more granular overview.

 

[cheatyface]

1.9:
Base damage:
fist is ignored now, but it does 1 damage if it's not holding something with a damage modifier.
+diamond axe (9) 9
*crit (+50%) 13.5
+sharpness 5 (3) 16.5 - now level one is worth 1, and every level after is worth .5, or you may as well say each level is .5, + initial .5
+strength 2 (6) 22.5
Grand total: 22.5 damage per hit (you can just barely 1-shot an unarmored player, but only if you crit with the strength II) You also have to wait more than a second between hits, unless you use the diamond sword instead, which still has a cool-down and only hits up to 19.5.

And if i remember the formula right, that 22.5 damage is still around 17 damage to full iron armour, and ~13 - toughness modifier to diamond (the sword is ~15.5 and ~11.5 - toughness). So you're going from "I can totally 1 shot anything but prot 4 diamond" to "i can 2 shot anything but enchanted diamond". I guess it's a good step, sure. I'm still down for nerfing.

 

[Catcocomics]

And if i remember the formula right, that 22.5 damage is still around 17 damage to full iron armour, and ~13 - toughness modifier to diamond (the sword is ~15.5 and ~11.5 - toughness). So you're going from "I can totally 1 shot anything but prot 4 diamond" to "i can 2 shot anything but enchanted diamond". I guess it's a good step, sure. I'm still down for nerfing.

may I also remind you that the 22.5 damage hit was for a sharpness 5 diamond/iron/stone axe at full charge?
And don't forget that shields cut down blocked melee damage to 33% it's normal strength, so that 17 damage is now 5.67.
Of course, you're probably not going to be able to defend with a shield if they hit from behind or if you don't even raise it (like if they sneak up on you from literally nowhere).

To be honest though, I'm pretty sure that by the time people start getting sharpness 5 swords or sharpness 5 axes (especially axes, because you can't just enchant sharpness on to them; you have to use books), people will also have started getting enchanted iron and diamond armor.

Mean while, you now have tipped arrows that can make you glow, die, get very close to death, move slowly, hit weaker, run faster, etc...
Surely you would be more worried about the thing that actually got buffed rather than the things that already got mega-nerfed?

And one more thing:
We should probably discuss nerfs and buffs after we find out more about the new legendary items and stuff that Malcovent is talking about.

 

[Hunter]

may I also remind you that the 22.5 damage hit was for a sharpness 5 diamond/iron/stone axe at full charge?
And don't forget that shields cut down blocked melee damage to 33% it's normal strength, so that 17 damage is now 5.67.
Of course, you're probably not going to be able to defend with a shield if they hit from behind or if you don't even raise it (like if they sneak up on you from literally nowhere).

To be honest though, I'm pretty sure that by the time people start getting sharpness 5 swords or sharpness 5 axes (especially axes, because you can't just enchant sharpness on to them; you have to use books), people will also have started getting enchanted iron and diamond armor.

Mean while, you now have tipped arrows that can make you glow, die, get very close to death, move slowly, hit weaker, run faster, etc...
Surely you would be more worried about the thing that actually got buffed rather than the things that already got mega-nerfed?

And one more thing:
We should probably discuss nerfs and buffs after we find out more about the new legendary items and stuff that Malcovent is talking about.

pretty sure you literally avoided PvP last game
Why do you want to be one shotted so badly

 

[cheatyface]

Mean while, you now have tipped arrows that can make you glow, die, get very close to death, move slowly, hit weaker, run faster, etc...
Surely you would be more worried about the thing that actually got buffed rather than the things that already got mega-nerfed?

And one more thing:
We should probably discuss nerfs and buffs after we find out more about the new legendary items and stuff that Malcovent is talking about.

Your red herring is ineffective. Bows and the new arrows are obviously part of combat, and should also be on the balance radar. Further, if these legendary items are to be useful or effective, they will be compared to currently attainable equipment. I'd rather not see a legendary sword that has something cool like feather fall also have to do base 9 damage to be considered competitive with a diamond axe or sword. I'd also rather not see every legendary armour piece have the same base stats as diamond so that people will wear it.

I don't have any particular changes to suggest for bows/arrows because I haven't looked into the new stuff too much. I do have suggestions for diamond gear because it's been unfair for a very long time.

 

[Malcovent]

I don't quite understand why people are arguing about the specifics when it was specifically stated we're withholding from pvp nerfs for now until we can agree on what our primary goals when nerfing it are, until then arguing about the specifics is I'm afraid, a little fruitless - though as per usual, thank you for the input.

Though I will in future request people act somewhat more civil to each other in this subforum. There's no reason we can't pursue a comfortable agreement on the specifics without heated argument.