Declined [Mob] Ikana Canyon

[Catcocomics]

Map Name: Ikana Canyon
Map Authors: Catcocomics
Game Type: Mob
Map Worldborder: Self-contained
Download: /warp IkanaCanyon
Game Time: 6300, frozen
Round Time: does this even apply to mob?
Maximum amount of players: 4
Block explosion list: cobblestone
Block drop on/off: oof
Notes:
*Contains basic redstone puzzles.
*Puzzles only restrict access to stronger shops until completed, and do not impede mobs (except for ghasts and endermen) once opened.
*Blocked shops include:
-Bomb Shop - requires Hero's Bow and arrows to open (4-5 Gold minimum), sells TNT and lighter (5 Gold each).
-Ice Arrow - requires TNT and Hero's Bow* with arrows (24-25 Gold minimum), sells Hero's Bow** (15 Gold) and slowness arrows (1 Gold for 4).
-Legend Shop - Requires Gold Dust (80 Gold), sells Gilded Sword, Hero's Bow***, and Mirror Shield, each at 15 Gold
-Fierce Deity - Requires Termina Memory Stone (200 Gold), sells Fierce Deity sword and armor set at 20 Gold a piece (5 pieces).
*Items with unbreaking 3 to please be made unbreakable.
Wave time: 60-90 seconds
Shop Locations: each of the shulker boxes (all but the white boxes are obstructed by puzzles, please view in spectator mode).

Spoiler

Mob spawn locations: the wither skulls
Fall damage: no
End Wave: 35
Mobs which can spawn: start with zombies, spiders, skeletons, ghasts, vindicators, silverfish, enderman change as needed.
Spawn and starting kit (if applicable):

Other Screenshot:

If you have any suggestions for aesthetics, please let me know.

 

[Guest35486]

Hi Catco, thanks for the map submission!

Unlocking shops is certainly an interesting idea and could improve the gameplay, but I would like to address some of my concerns.

Spoiler

First off, the main shop is in a very closed space. With the current setup, it will be incredibly easy for players to be pushed in by mobs and be unable to get out. The only way in or out is through the iron door. I suggest having at least two exits for the shop and possibly widening the current doorway, especially since this is the only shop players can access without solving redstone puzzles.

Spoiler

Other than that, the upper area of the map seems to be only accessible through this stairway or by swimming up the water. While there are mob spawns on the platform, having more than one way to the area will be a good modification as it prevents being cornered on the other side.

My primary concern is the puzzles. Players may not notice them in the first place, or if they do, they may not bother solving them at all. This means that players will only have access to the main shop, along with the kit they've started with.

1. The main shop doesn't have a lot of items - Players will only be able to purchase an almost broken iron sword with Sharp VII and Sweeping Edge III for a weapon. There are no armor available except for the ones given in the kit. If players do not solve any of the puzzles, they will be incredibly limited by the choices. It might be a good idea to add normal armor.
2. Kits are strong enough to sustain a player, until they break - I've tested the kit in a Mob game. It was relatively easy to survive multiple waves with the starting kit, especially with the addition of arrows. (which you can purchase in the main shop) However, once the armor breaks, the player will not be able to purchase armor at all, unless they solve puzzles. I find that this is a bit too limiting on the gameplay. Other than that, I've mentioned this in your other map submission, (Thundering Skies) but I recommend having a permanent weapon in the kit, such as the Fighter's Stick. While this scenario may be rare, if a player doesn't have enough gold by the time their sword breaks, they will not be able to have a weapon and will die relatively easily.
3. Players will have nothing to purchase - Players can repurchase the sword once it breaks, get Golden Apples to regen, buy potions for both defense and offense, but it will become quite repetitive, and perhaps boring, for some players.
4. Players can go in shops others opened - You've made the players spend gold to open shops, making the weapons inside the shops relatively cheaper. However, other players can go in the shops once unlocked as well. This means that one player may have spent 200 gold on the Termina Memory Stone to open a shop, while another gains the benefits while retaining 200 gold.

Overall, it's an appealing concept, but its execution is a bit problematic. Making the locked shops more of an extra aspect would be a better direction, in my opinion. Add more regular items in the main shop and make it clearer that there are puzzles and locked shops. Even though they're puzzles, telling the players what they require will encourage players to solve the puzzles more. Currently, players will be too busy fighting mobs than trying to think about how to solve the puzzles, especially if they're in areas where the players can get cornered. I think that having more unique items in the shops, rather than powerful, would be a better idea. For example, an enchanted book perhaps? This allows you to keep the items cheap, while not giving other players a huge advantage.

 

[Catcocomics]

First off, the main shop is in a very closed space. With the current setup, it will be incredibly easy for players to be pushed in by mobs and be unable to get out. The only way in or out is through the iron door. I suggest having at least two exits for the shop and possibly widening the current doorway, especially since this is the only shop players can access without solving redstone puzzles.

We could put the main shop right outside the house and close the iron door, preventing the house from being any sort of a player trap at all.

The main shop doesn't have a lot of items - Players will only be able to purchase an almost broken iron sword with Sharp VII and Sweeping Edge III for a weapon. There are no armor available except for the ones given in the kit. If players do not solve any of the puzzles, they will be incredibly limited by the choices. It might be a good idea to add normal armor.

I could try to think of a few more things people can buy, but perhaps we could disable the round skip feature for this map, since the first 5-8 are bound to be dealt with with several seconds of over time that could be spent exploring the map.
In fact, because of the puzzles and stuff, it would probably be a good idea to make the waves longer than on most other mob maps for this very purpose.

As of this post, colored beacons with no effects have been set to mark the locations of the shops. Additionally, a sign has been placed in front of the new main shop location reading "More shops with stronger equipment can be found under light".

Kits are strong enough to sustain a player, until they break - I've tested the kit in a Mob game. It was relatively easy to survive multiple waves with the starting kit, especially with the addition of arrows. (which you can purchase in the main shop) However, once the armor breaks, the player will not be able to purchase armor at all, unless they solve puzzles. I find that this is a bit too limiting on the gameplay. Other than that, I've mentioned this in your other map submission, (Thundering Skies) but I recommend having a permanent weapon in the kit, such as the Fighter's Stick. While this scenario may be rare, if a player doesn't have enough gold by the time their sword breaks, they will not be able to have a weapon and will die relatively easily.

I would like more details on your test: how far did you get, did you defeats hordes of nether/end/post game mobs with the kit?
If you tested only with the mobs I listed, we can change the list to add far scarier mobs, like zombie pigs and vexes.
If you had no trouble trouncing several waves of the likes of zombie pigs and vexes, we could also knock down the protection level a couple of pegs.

As far as durability is concerned:

*Items with unbreaking 3 to please be made unbreakable.

As I recall, the only item without unbreaking 3 is the Razor Sword; 10 damage iron sword with 100 uses.

Players can go in shops others opened - You've made the players spend gold to open shops, making the weapons inside the shops relatively cheaper. However, other players can go in the shops once unlocked as well. This means that one player may have spent 200 gold on the Termina Memory Stone to open a shop, while another gains the benefits while retaining 200 gold.

I'm fully aware of this and rather intended it to be an incentive towards team work, but if it becomes too big of a problem with kids hoarding all their gold and refusing to buy the key items, I can just give them a hell puzzle that takes a lot of time and leaves them completely vulnerable to more mobs make some kind of puzzle or something.
Or maybe...

Players will have nothing to purchase - Players can repurchase the sword once it breaks, get Golden Apples to regen, buy potions for both defense and offense, but it will become quite repetitive, and perhaps boring, for some players.

since the only sword that I intend to be capable of breaking is the Razor Sword, would it be possible to make it be its own currency item, specifically for the gilded sword? If so, how hard would it be to make the game ignore damage values of the sword?
Since the bows aren't intended to take durability damage at all, would it be easier to use lesser bows to buy greater bows?

Still, it does look like setting up a price for keys to powerful equipment might not be the best idea... I'll think of something when I have less on my mind.

 

[HKCaper]

Hi Catco, thanks for creating this map!

I want to mention a couple of aspects. Personally I like the puzzle idea of the map, progressing in shops as the game progresses and get better gear. Altough, Arelic has made a good point that I agree with

The main shop doesn't have a lot of items -

I feel like I would not bother getting the only weapon (not counting the bow, since you have one and flame is not really needed) the sword. This means you will have to depend on unlocking the shops for new gear. I do not think this is really bad, since this would be my priority anyway, unlocking all the shops. Also, at the end of the day, I always like being able to just buy a plain diamond sword for 18 gold, that lasts me the entire game. That does not mean your map should have them, I would just like some easy to get items in the main shop (that last for a while).

I do feel like the gear is a bit strong. Maybe I am missing something, but sharp25 diamond sword, with sweeping edge III is crazy good. If you unlock the last shop, is there even a chance you can still loose? The Gilded Sword is also really powerful. Basically, I like the shops as a feature, but I am not sure if the items might be too strong.

Arelic also mentioned this:

Other than that, the upper area of the map seems to be only accessible through this stairway or by swimming up the water. While there are mob spawns on the platform, having more than one way to the area will be a good modification as it prevents being cornered on the other side.

I'd still like you to respond to this, since I also had this as a concern.

On the contrary, Arelic also mentioned:

Players can go in shops others opened

I feel like Mob is always a team effort, so this is actually a good thing.


Anyway, if anything is unclear or you need some help, contact me ingame anytime. This response might not give you too much to work with, but I did not want to keep you waiting for any longer. For the rest, I do think the map looks quite nice, my only advice would be to maybe find a replacement for the chorus plants, as I do not think they blend in all that well (could be just me though).

 

[Catcocomics]

I would just like some easy to get items in the main shop (that last for a while).

I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of anything that would be worth your while, other than some kind of knockback weapon, since all the swords that aren't in the main shop are permanent. Perhaps I could take an axe and make it KB 2 or 3?

Basically, I like the shops as a feature, but I am not sure if the items might be too strong.

The Fierce Deity Sword does a solid 20 damage (the swords are supposed to be tiered in multiples of 5 damage).
If it's too strong for 20G after unlock, I could up the price to 50-64.
After all, by the time anyone has 200 gold, they'll probably be able to afford the whole set on the following wave (unless they scraped up everything they could).

I'd still like you to respond to this

I've added vines and jump pads, though I kind of felt that people would maybe hang around the lower, bigger area, only heading up for bombs and Fierce Deity shops (the latter of which will prove much more challenging during its time than the former's).

I feel like Mob is always a team effort

I did decide to take into account that more players means more money sooner. If it is at all possible, I would like the price for the FD key to be 150 + (25 * player count), and Gold Dust to be 50 + (10 * player count). We'll go with the default prices of 200 and 80 if we can't scale the key prices based on players.

 

[Guest35486]

I could try to think of a few more things people can buy, but perhaps we could disable the round skip feature for this map, since the first 5-8 are bound to be dealt with with several seconds of over time that could be spent exploring the map.

I disagree. Players may not know or want to solve the puzzles. Forcing people to wait through rounds may make the players bored and quit instead.

I would like more details on your test: how far did you get, did you defeats hordes of nether/end/post game mobs with the kit?
If you tested only with the mobs I listed, we can change the list to add far scarier mobs, like zombie pigs and vexes.
If you had no trouble trouncing several waves of the likes of zombie pigs and vexes, we could also knock down the protection level a couple of pegs.

I basically gave myself the kit you've specified and started a round of Night Siege on the server. If you recall, the mobs you've specified are pretty similar to Night Siege's before wave 13. As for how it went, before vexes started spawning, it was relatively easy and I barely took any damage.

As far as durability is concerned:
As I recall, the only item without unbreaking 3 is the Razor Sword; 10 damage iron sword with 100 uses.

This is one of my main concerns. I apologize for missing the note when I first read this post. However, I would like to state that having weapons or armor that last forever may be a bad idea. It will discourage players from purchasing weapons especially since the main shop selection is limited. While I know shops provide more powerful items, players may not know the answer to the puzzles. One of the challenges of Mob is to get enough gold to fight and survive. When items are unbreakable, it decreases the incentive to go to shops.

since the only sword that I intend to be capable of breaking is the Razor Sword, would it be possible to make it be its own currency item, specifically for the gilded sword? If so, how hard would it be to make the game ignore damage values of the sword?
Since the bows aren't intended to take durability damage at all, would it be easier to use lesser bows to buy greater bows?

If it is at all possible, I would like the price for the FD key to be 150 + (25 * player count), and Gold Dust to be 50 + (10 * player count). We'll go with the default prices of 200 and 80 if we can't scale the key prices based on players.

Both of these aren't possible at the moment.

Ideally, Mob is a team effort and players work together to open shops. However, this is not always the case. I still believe that the unlockable shops should be less powerful and be used as an extra aspect of the map, especially with how powerful some of the items are currently. I do like the changes you've made so far, with the beacons and paths for accessibility.

 

[Catcocomics]

I disagree. Players may not know or want to solve the puzzles. Forcing people to wait through rounds may make the players bored and quit instead.

While I know shops provide more powerful items, players may not know the answer to the puzzles.

Quick over view of the puzzles:
Bomb Shop - Arrow to a very easy to spot "eye switch" (empty dispenser with wooden button on it).

Ice Shop - Bomb to a bombable wall followed by specifically a Fire Arrow to a ceiling TNT (which is caught by a trapdoor), which shines light down and opens the shop. I may put a sign on the bombable wall in case people don't understand that cobble can be blown up.

Legend and Fierce shops are both opened by key items that should be made obvious by accompanying signs.

I basically gave myself the kit you've specified and started a round of Night Siege on the server. If you recall, the mobs you've specified are pretty similar to Night Siege's before wave 13. As for how it went, before vexes started spawning, it was relatively easy and I barely took any damage.

We could just throw everything (in terms of mobs) we've got at them. Do you think that would work?

 

[Guest35486]

Hi Catco, thanks for the map submission!

First off, we would like to apologize for taking so long to reach a decision.

The staff felt a bit conflicted when examining the map, as there were flaws in its execution but could also prove to be a fun and unique map. After multiple discussions, we edited the map and tested it, but ultimately it did not feel right for AoD.

The main concern with the map is the progression in shops. The staff modified it so that players could survive off main shop but could open other shops for perks. Trying to balance the map so that there wouldn't be that big of a gap between the players who solved the puzzles and the players that didn't proved to be a difficult task. We compromised by leaving the bows to progress but also including special items such as jump boost arrows and wolf spawn eggs. In addition, we also modified the river by making it one block deep and adding bridges.

After testing, issues still occurred. Players may not understand how to open puzzles or even if they do, they may skip around shops and grow bored. The gap between players still persisted. The layout isn't ideal as there are parts where players could stay in safely. The decoration overall and the river caused problems even with modifications. Another concern that was brought up after testing was that players could get stuck in shops, especially the Ice Arrow shop, where players have to enter a dark area before the actual shop area.

Declined