I think this is right, as I remmember getting something like this answered very long ago, when I was just messing around and heard about WE.
I may be totally wrong, my memory is a bit fuzzy
Meh... The whole wonderful rank reset thing doesn't really matter to me so long as I'm not expected to build anything on the Hypixel/Gazimo level of building (Designing a 5 week project that creates a giant "master piece" level with 2 hours of somewhat dull gameplay built in) to simply get builder (and seeing how back in December 2012, a small fortress that could pass for a medium sized house = builder rank...).
However, I do have a few comments about getting my rank reset because of a server update... for one:
OMG, so much like the thing in Full Metal Alchemist where state alchemists have to retake their exam once every year to remain a state alchemist!!!! This will challenge builders to come up with something new or something and give them more reason to stay on BB. Contradictory to that statement, I don't want something stupid like, oh I take a break for about, say a month, and then come back with player rank because I wasn't on to retake whatever test it was. So, what rawr suggested in that quote seems like a good idea to me, but only for about a maximum rate of, say... 4 times a year?
I should also note that the hopefully to-scale replica of the Comet Observatory from supa mawio galaxy that I made on my plot, although 50%+ mathematically correct and decently detailed, was not enough on its own to give me builder (thankfully, I had some other shenanigans built at, which tree-mendously [don't know why I'm trying to refer to an underground base I built by use of tree puns] helped me get my rank).
Lastly, I do hope this means that, if players can't use W.E., even in their plots, that if they manually remove the top 3 layers of dirt and grass from 95% of their plot, it still won't be enough effort to earn them builder (Seriously, I manually dug 90% of the top 3 layers of my first plot and filled it all with water, then created "islands" last year. Despite the fact that the feat took well over SEVEN HOURS to accomplish, when I had asked some one if it was builder worthy, they pretty much guffawed at me and said "you probably just used World Edit and crap" (not what they actually said), which had confused me because, at the time, I believed with my very existence that WE was an OP only thing.
But all in all, I seriously don't give a duck's apple orchard about rank resets... because I'll just go on and earn that supa-feather back anyways.
#whythehelldoIpointlesslymake3pageposts?
However, I do have a few comments about getting my rank reset because of a server update... for one:
This, I actually like the idea of because
I should also note that the hopefully to-scale replica of the Comet Observatory from supa mawio galaxy that I made on my plot, although 50%+ mathematically correct and decently detailed, was not enough on its own to give me builder (thankfully, I had some other shenanigans built at, which tree-mendously [don't know why I'm trying to refer to an underground base I built by use of tree puns] helped me get my rank).
Lastly, I do hope this means that, if players can't use W.E., even in their plots, that if they manually remove the top 3 layers of dirt and grass from 95% of their plot, it still won't be enough effort to earn them builder (Seriously, I manually dug 90% of the top 3 layers of my first plot and filled it all with water, then created "islands" last year. Despite the fact that the feat took well over SEVEN HOURS to accomplish, when I had asked some one if it was builder worthy, they pretty much guffawed at me and said "you probably just used World Edit and crap" (not what they actually said), which had confused me because, at the time, I believed with my very existence that WE was an OP only thing.
But all in all, I seriously don't give a duck's apple orchard about rank resets... because I'll just go on and earn that supa-feather back anyways.
#whythehelldoIpointlesslymake3pageposts?
I could give you a free one I guess. I have a lot of supa-feathers.Catcomcomics said:
I guess I can see why you would have so many feathers, but What I meant by
was that I'd go on and earn back the WE permission to sue these feathers.
Oh whoops! I totally meant to say "use" and not "sue" there!
I want to foster a creative environment that encourages builders to push themselves and build to the best possible standard that they can, and then improve on that.
Understatement of the year! If I had a penny for every time I crashed the server with VS...
I crashed server with mere WE by accident few times, when I was copying and pasting stuff
And yes builders should be much better than players.
Well they should build as good as they can, so they can make cool maps for our other servers.
I will say, I hope they don't keep on resetting the terms of builder. I don't want it to be so that the staff expects the player to build as nice a build as a Adv. Builder is just basically a step up from lower class. I don't think it should require as much detail to make your head swim. I have looked at a build with a lot of depth in it. It had cobblestone fences and detail. It bothers me to try and find how they did this and that, and plus, it isn't even realistic. I much prefer realism. Now I hope that Builders don't get reset again. It is getting to where we have to build like an adv. I don't want that to happen. Let's just keep it as Build big, little depth, some details, as long as it looks ok, And imagination.
I rephrased that a bit for you.
All jokes aside, the rank reset has been controversial. However, it has shown an increase in build quality. As for inconsistencies in the op's standards, it does generally come from their background (pre-2.0 Builder, aka me, compared to Adv Builder, aka Rex). It's quite hard to have a solid checklist because of that (partially because we don't have one).
If you're a good builder, you should get through fine. However, if you were denied when you tried to reapply, this is a chance to help improve your skills, and to give yourself a target to aim for.
Alright it seems like the issues are getting combined and I don't think they should. as far as I am concerned builders ranks being reset I don't care about in the slightest that they reset the builder rank but really how bad can players be abusing world edit. and if there's a question of trustability why not just limit it to a players own plots or give some ranks based on ontimes?
to be honest I'm getting a little sick of people saying if players used world edit they'd make entirely undetailed builds. They make those builds anyway Mainly because they are new and don't know a lot about detailing yet. just spend an entire 5 extra hours going through the process. my first build for builder I spent 6 hours on to basically have the operator reviewing it tell me it sucked (in hindsight ore houses weren't the best idea but I was coming off a classic build experience where people actually admired effort and attempts at creativity put in.)
I'm aware world edit doesn't automatically make people great builders and that's what people seem to think players think is the case which isn't entirely true. I recognize it's possible to build amazing builds without World edit but It can take an insanely long time. Obviously if worldedit weren't useful people wouldn't use it so that clearly isn't the case.
All I want to do is build with friends on the server the limitation on the ability to alter blocks as easily significantly slows down the process of being able to test and edit stuff into ways that look good. In that way the time restriction does slow down creativity, (think if you'd spent an three hours on a build then decided you didn't like the color of the block type you used it could take up to an hour to fix) In that way you pretty much need to have an entire build decided before you start building which isn't very easy to do unless you are already an extremely experienced builder.
also I'm not sure if you've tried to build directly alongside a friend who has worldedit but they end up dominating most of the building, by the time you can place a few blocks they can have a large percentage of the build already completed.
I've thought about this a lot and Why force a build quality increase if you only want a friendly creative server? people previously have pointed out that a lot of players have left or went to singleplayer because of the rank reset/ permissions removal, and I honestly can't shake the feeling this might've been intentional. I've always seen buildbox as a server for the communities use where anyone in blocktopia could come on and join and start building something especially for other maps etc. However, I feel buildbox might be trying to intentionally make inferior builders feel less welcome here by removing ranks/permissions in general in order to restrict it's playerbase to only a more skilled set of builders.
anyway Nill has said it won't be changed, so there isn't much point in arguing but I thought I might share my opinion here. I guess we'll have to wait and see what the future holds.
to be honest I'm getting a little sick of people saying if players used world edit they'd make entirely undetailed builds. They make those builds anyway Mainly because they are new and don't know a lot about detailing yet. just spend an entire 5 extra hours going through the process. my first build for builder I spent 6 hours on to basically have the operator reviewing it tell me it sucked (in hindsight ore houses weren't the best idea but I was coming off a classic build experience where people actually admired effort and attempts at creativity put in.)
I'm aware world edit doesn't automatically make people great builders and that's what people seem to think players think is the case which isn't entirely true. I recognize it's possible to build amazing builds without World edit but It can take an insanely long time. Obviously if worldedit weren't useful people wouldn't use it so that clearly isn't the case.
All I want to do is build with friends on the server the limitation on the ability to alter blocks as easily significantly slows down the process of being able to test and edit stuff into ways that look good. In that way the time restriction does slow down creativity, (think if you'd spent an three hours on a build then decided you didn't like the color of the block type you used it could take up to an hour to fix) In that way you pretty much need to have an entire build decided before you start building which isn't very easy to do unless you are already an extremely experienced builder.
also I'm not sure if you've tried to build directly alongside a friend who has worldedit but they end up dominating most of the building, by the time you can place a few blocks they can have a large percentage of the build already completed.
I've thought about this a lot and Why force a build quality increase if you only want a friendly creative server? people previously have pointed out that a lot of players have left or went to singleplayer because of the rank reset/ permissions removal, and I honestly can't shake the feeling this might've been intentional. I've always seen buildbox as a server for the communities use where anyone in blocktopia could come on and join and start building something especially for other maps etc. However, I feel buildbox might be trying to intentionally make inferior builders feel less welcome here by removing ranks/permissions in general in order to restrict it's playerbase to only a more skilled set of builders.
anyway Nill has said it won't be changed, so there isn't much point in arguing but I thought I might share my opinion here. I guess we'll have to wait and see what the future holds.
Yeah, I'd say even though WE was removed in the hope of more detail some players are just copying what it would look like with WE, it's just taking them a whole lot longer. And building floors without WE is such a pain 
. It can take 1 hour to build something that could've taking 15 seconds.
I think having WE in their plots is reasonable but since that's not going to be added why don't you add a player build world where the players can use WE to work on their builds. I'm not sure about the "players are always crashing the server" thing because I think everyone's crashed the server at least once, including builders and adv builders and I've never seen a player come on and intentionally crash the server. Also it's pretty hard to crash the server by yourself. Normally it takes two players doing a large //set,//sphere or //paste at the same time.
All this aside you've got to pity the poor player who likes building 50x50 dirt walls.
. It can take 1 hour to build something that could've taking 15 seconds.I think having WE in their plots is reasonable but since that's not going to be added why don't you add a player build world where the players can use WE to work on their builds. I'm not sure about the "players are always crashing the server" thing because I think everyone's crashed the server at least once, including builders and adv builders and I've never seen a player come on and intentionally crash the server. Also it's pretty hard to crash the server by yourself. Normally it takes two players doing a large //set,//sphere or //paste at the same time.
All this aside you've got to pity the poor player who likes building 50x50 dirt walls
.These are screenshots of two plots from two different players. It might not seem like much, but I'm certain that there are quite a few more plots filled with WorldEdited blocks made to fill the whole plot for some reason -- They would be easily recognizable if you saw them on the dynmap/livemap (which needs some fixing).
Well, you're probably going to need a bucket to throw up in, because it's true. Before 2.0, I've seen players that used WorldEdit to create their builds. Some of them created large builds, walls, or towers with the tool and thought that they would get Builder just because their build was large. What most of these builds lacked were details. And by disabling WorldEdit for Players, they will be forced to focus on details instead of creating something massive -- unless they're ambitious and know what they're doing. And think about it, it's easy to get rid of something with WE or //undo -- but if you invested your time to put every block down, one by one, then you will feel like you're one with the build, as if it has a soul and all that spiritual stuff.
Building anything takes time and effort. You're not going to get a great build just by exclusively using WorldEdit for the majority of a build. And during that time that you're actually hand building something, you may end up coming up with a new idea or a different design that you may never have thought of if you just used WE to instantly create something. And this is coming from an avid builder -- it's the process that matters because you can gain a lot of new ideas along the way and in the end, you'll be happy with what you created.
Honestly, if you're unsure of what blocks to use on your build, then maybe you should take the time to think about what you're going to build before you actually go full on and halfway change your mind on certain blocks. If that happens, and you're not able to ask a Builder+ to change it up for you, then why not improvise and deal with it?
Maybe you're not working as efficiently as you may think? If that player with WE can create large sections quickly, then let them. And while they're doing that, you'll be able to focus on the details.
Buildbox is a friendly, creative server. But just because we're friendly doesn't mean that the building quality should be subpar. How I see it is that if you want to join a creative server then show off your building style. If you think you need to work on your aesthetics a bit more, then practice building other things and see if you like them. Get on the server because you want to build and don't be discouraged just because certain tools aren't immediately available to you.
I'm sorry, but this is just not true. I don't know where you got the impression that Buildbox is doing this, but I'm sorry that you even feel this way. Honestly, I'm quite offended that you even said it. The staff and players are there to help you and to critique your build when needed and come up with ideas if something on a build isn't working. There's even the BuildingHelp warp with the tutorials to get you started. Just keep building and tweak your aesthetics along the way. Practice the hell out of it and you'll eventually become a good Builder.
I've been a builder on BuildBox.
I used BuildBox to make some maps. Well, at least one comes to memory and thats Desert Town for Infection.
In that map, WorldEdit generated the gradient of hills, the mesa canyon and the sand mountains. You know it'd be pretty tedious if I were to do those by hand? Luckily, this was before the change. I used brushes like no ones business, and then went over things and did some double checking and cleaning up.
I was using BuildBox to create the terrain and map border of my next map which was going to be icy, but didn't have inspiration at that moment to build it. So I left it as a very shallow lowered hill in the middle, with a perfectly circular ice lake from which this icy castle / palace of mine was going to be built up from.
The interesting niché I was going to use was that the crystal would be reflected below, and so you'd have two versions of this building to go through. One upside up, one upside down. Now, fairly clearly this needs WorldEdit that is capable of reflecting stairs, since MCEdit's base version can't do that. At the time I lost builder (again), but it didn't matter. I had my plot and I was a player, and I could do it. The hills were generated by me using WorldEdit. Do you mean to tell me I have to manually place each block of dirt to represent a hill? Either way, now with these new changes I can't do what I had intended. I have literally zero motivation to ever log back onto BuildBox to build a map for another server because there is not one single tool that I can use in a space that isn't representing the whole server.
I don't feel compelled to prove to anyone I can build. I've done it before and that was annoying, but now all it is is just appealing to your tastes. I don't want to have to put in double the amount of effort to even begin to provide for other servers. Now, I have to make the bloody map on my own local server rather than on BuildBox because I have more tools at my disposal. Now I have to literally create in absolute silence, not one single person to communicate with. And that is solely because there is no incentive to build on BuildBox for Blocktopia.
It was really really upsetting coming back from a while off doing other things and playing other games to find that I couldn't do my map idea for Infection, or perhaps Army of Darkness. I had the motivation too, but thanks to finding out that I can't do anything in my own plot, not even delete it! It's outrageous.
So i've given up trying. I stopped playing BuildBox. I'm not out to try and convince anyone i'm capable of being Builder. I'm fed up with trying to convince people that I am something other than the blur of internet names in this day and age.
I used BuildBox to make some maps. Well, at least one comes to memory and thats Desert Town for Infection.
In that map, WorldEdit generated the gradient of hills, the mesa canyon and the sand mountains. You know it'd be pretty tedious if I were to do those by hand? Luckily, this was before the change. I used brushes like no ones business, and then went over things and did some double checking and cleaning up.
I was using BuildBox to create the terrain and map border of my next map which was going to be icy, but didn't have inspiration at that moment to build it. So I left it as a very shallow lowered hill in the middle, with a perfectly circular ice lake from which this icy castle / palace of mine was going to be built up from.
The interesting niché I was going to use was that the crystal would be reflected below, and so you'd have two versions of this building to go through. One upside up, one upside down. Now, fairly clearly this needs WorldEdit that is capable of reflecting stairs, since MCEdit's base version can't do that. At the time I lost builder (again), but it didn't matter. I had my plot and I was a player, and I could do it. The hills were generated by me using WorldEdit. Do you mean to tell me I have to manually place each block of dirt to represent a hill? Either way, now with these new changes I can't do what I had intended. I have literally zero motivation to ever log back onto BuildBox to build a map for another server because there is not one single tool that I can use in a space that isn't representing the whole server.
I don't feel compelled to prove to anyone I can build. I've done it before and that was annoying, but now all it is is just appealing to your tastes. I don't want to have to put in double the amount of effort to even begin to provide for other servers. Now, I have to make the bloody map on my own local server rather than on BuildBox because I have more tools at my disposal. Now I have to literally create in absolute silence, not one single person to communicate with. And that is solely because there is no incentive to build on BuildBox for Blocktopia.
It was really really upsetting coming back from a while off doing other things and playing other games to find that I couldn't do my map idea for Infection, or perhaps Army of Darkness. I had the motivation too, but thanks to finding out that I can't do anything in my own plot, not even delete it! It's outrageous.
So i've given up trying. I stopped playing BuildBox. I'm not out to try and convince anyone i'm capable of being Builder. I'm fed up with trying to convince people that I am something other than the blur of internet names in this day and age.
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You guys have all been talking about how players need more effort to give their builds a lot more detail. I have to say the builds you guys want has way to much detail and depth. I have been seeing(I said this in the other post in this thread) builds where it is mainly stone and cobblestone, and the cobblestone fencing for details, has been way overused. At the lobby of "Flatlands" in BB, go to your left, you'll see a big stone building, it is detailed yes but over detailed. There is always too much for anything in life. Heck it doesn't even look realistic, No offence to the builder that made that. Also I am not complaining about the players not having WE. Actually, I kind of agree with it. Builders should earn their next step up to get more things. If it ever happens to where us builders get deranked to player, that is basically saying "Ok a lot of builders have been lazy with WE by making spheres and huge walls because they are bored and didn't want to make an effort so we are taking it out on you innocent builders who have been creative, and making you suffer other people's consiquences. So you builders are on the list of 'who to demote.' " This is totally wrong. I think the ops should make a filter, basically going through a list of players who they have been monitoring and if they where lazy, they demote him/her. Or the ops could just tell the players not to make big spheres and walls for no reason. Like a message like "so and so just got ranked to builder: Rules! No. 1 don't make unneccesary shapes and walls with WE randomly across flatlands or any other area unless it is your own plots. No.2 etc etc etc......." you guys get the point. And if the builder violates those rules, whatever the other rules may be, he/or she gets banned for 4 hours. I'm not sure why this couldn't be reasonable.
Note: I am coming with the mindset of a player on this post.
Here is an interesting idea, remove WE and VS from everyone (adv, op, vetop) and have them all build awesome adv quality builds to get WE and VS back.
I know that this sounds insane, and it is insane. I am 100% certain that no one would agree to this. But this did happen. It was forced upon the old builders and the new players. Without asking them.
Please think of how the players feel instead of the current mindset.
(Out of the player mindset now)
I think there might be some confusion with the ops about WE not being available. The problem isn't that WE is disabled for players, it is the requirements. (Which almost NEED WE to have a slight hope of getting.)
Also just out of curiosity, how many new players (those who weren't builder before 2.0) have gotten builder?
And why don't the Ops bother to help and teach players how to build? Instead of just type "Look at the build help plot", "Watch a Youtube video about it", or "You need to add more detail".
Ops should be side by side the the player and literally walk them through the detailing process.
I personally once asked for some help on building good looking curving stairs. I asked the op who was online and he replied "watch a Youtube video about it." He should have taken the time to walk me through the steps. It wasn't like he was in the middle of something. Maybe he was working on his own build, but that shouldn't prevent him from helping.
EDIT: Could someone change my vote to "Not necessarily..." ? Thanks!
Here is an interesting idea, remove WE and VS from everyone (adv, op, vetop) and have them all build awesome adv quality builds to get WE and VS back.
I know that this sounds insane, and it is insane. I am 100% certain that no one would agree to this. But this did happen. It was forced upon the old builders and the new players. Without asking them.
Please think of how the players feel instead of the current mindset.
(Out of the player mindset now)
I think there might be some confusion with the ops about WE not being available. The problem isn't that WE is disabled for players, it is the requirements. (Which almost NEED WE to have a slight hope of getting.)
Also just out of curiosity, how many new players (those who weren't builder before 2.0) have gotten builder?
And why don't the Ops bother to help and teach players how to build? Instead of just type "Look at the build help plot", "Watch a Youtube video about it", or "You need to add more detail".
Ops should be side by side the the player and literally walk them through the detailing process.
I personally once asked for some help on building good looking curving stairs. I asked the op who was online and he replied "watch a Youtube video about it." He should have taken the time to walk me through the steps. It wasn't like he was in the middle of something. Maybe he was working on his own build, but that shouldn't prevent him from helping.
EDIT: Could someone change my vote to "Not necessarily..." ? Thanks!
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I do agree with this partially. I feel that maybe it could be over the top to take that away from Operators, as their job is more based around maturity and responsibility, yet if they want to build, maybe...
I agree. I personally like building massive builds, and I wouldn't be against WE being allowed and the requirements being -raised (Yes, I know that this is kinda the opposite of what you said). I also wouldn't be opposed to the requirements being lowered quite a bit (Though not to the originals) and players still not having WE
I will say that that's essentially what MikeTang did for me (Showing me how to do something), and I definitely agree all Operators should be doing this.
That's a good question. Maybe there should be a way to revote on the Forums, like in AoD?
I remember the first time I tried getting builder. I can easily understand the initial confusion of "it needs more detail", though I think that walking some one through on how to add detail is like walking some one through on how to play the entire first Zelda game down to the last detail.
The reason, apart from evident frustration and confusion, that my first build to get me builder stands out, is because I was told what was needed in order to get builder from the build, but not down to the core specifics. So, saying something like "The walls need to look more 3D and not like a smooth box" is more understandable than "It needs more detail", but it's just vague enough so that it actually feels like you're the one in complete control of your build.
Also, lols on the video. Though I will point out that I'm not too happy about that guys who will sue you for simply looking at him funny... He's essentially all like "I gunna cri cuz you looked at me!"
The reason, apart from evident frustration and confusion, that my first build to get me builder stands out, is because I was told what was needed in order to get builder from the build, but not down to the core specifics. So, saying something like "The walls need to look more 3D and not like a smooth box" is more understandable than "It needs more detail", but it's just vague enough so that it actually feels like you're the one in complete control of your build.
Also, lols on the video. Though I will point out that I'm not too happy about that guys who will sue you for simply looking at him funny... He's essentially all like "I gunna cri cuz you looked at me!"
I'm sorry that you feel this way, but you're right--you don't need to prove to anyone that you can build. It's just a rank with a perk. And by saying "double the amount of effort", are you referring to getting your map approved by the respective server staff? Also, it seems like you loathe building in your local server because, and honestly, no one is stopping you from doing that because that's basically your decision to build there.
chrisrocks300 made that build.
Did you mean Players instead of Builders? Then yes, I'd agree. If Players had WE, then the Builder rank would only have incentives such as a second plot, usage of Toolbelt, and TP perms (and maybe more?). And by that alone, the Builder rank doesn't look like much of a thing to acquire.
Not a bad idea, but maybe going too far in some respect. This just seems like it would be best for a different situation, like a build team or if building standards were seriously enforced for something.
Challenge... considered.
I think the requirements are fine even without WE. But aren't you Builder? And didn't you submit one of your previous builds (that you probably used WE) to build it? Get on the server and see what other people are building for Builder. They're not building huge builds-- just good sized builds with sufficient details in them.
Maybe one or two? I'm not sure. Although, I'm certain that the players that I've ranked up to Builder were all previous Builders.
This Op that you were referring to must be me. I could have helped, but honestly, I would have been wasting your time just trying to figure out how to make a spiral staircase. I believe that I've only one before. And when I mentioned other options such as youtube/pictures, I figured that you should look into them because they were already set and done. Technically, I was helping by giving you those options, but I believe that you went to RoF to look at one of their staircases instead.
And for anyone that is interested. Here are screenshots of just a few of the players that I've ranked up to Builder.