katman's Buildbox discussion thread

Were all the rank downgrades and permission removals necessary?


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YouWould

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I was having a nice discussion/ debate with the people on Buildbox today, and though I feel like this may get somewhat controversial, I think it's a thread that should exist. So, here's the question:

Was the BB 2.0 Rank reset and command restriction necessary?
Yes, I know it's already happened and it wont be undone, but still, it's a good discussion.

Pros:
We no longer have to worry about new players lagging the server with huge spheres of sand
We no longer have to worry about server crashes every time a player resets their plot

Cons:
Because players can't use WE, the amount of people playing Buildbox is decreasing, simply because new and returning players feel it's useless to go through the now extremely intensified effort to get to Builder just so they can use WE, tp, and clear their plots.

What do you think?
 

EggNog

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I dislike the large amounts of resets that have been performed on the builder rank. One reset should of been enough but since the start of BuildBox we have gone through I believe three or four. Each time new standards were set in place and each time we had to reset again because we felt quality was not high enough. Though I am not a builder I have heard so many complaints about this people who have had to re-earn builder 1-3 times despite completely deserving the rank.

I certanly hope the BB 2.0 rank reset is the last one because right now if feels like a every half a year or year thing. It also seems rather unprofessional and players dislike it.

Little bit of a rant, but it is one of the things I dislike about BuildBox (along with the lack there of an Engineer rank). As for the new regulations on WE those make complete sense although I'm sure it frustrates some I understand, being a previous Build Op, how annoying it can be to have a guest login and in 5 mins cause 30 mins of cleam up for the ops.
 
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YouWould

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That's understandable, and frankly I completely agree. It's not even worth playing BB if unless you get ADV or you are an Operator if the rank keeps getting reset. If this continues Builder builds will end up having to be so big and detailed they won't even be able to fit in a plot.
 

Psycho

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I've seen quite a few players come on the server and complain about how they aren't able to use WorldEdit anymore because they are a Player rank. I can give you so many points against Player ranks getting WorldEdit that I feel like I'm going to offend someone-- and to get that out of the way -- I apologize. But overall this is my opinion and not the Buildbox staff's views on this.

Was the BB 2.0 Rank reset and command restriction necessary?
Yes, I know it's already happened and it wont be undone, but still, it's a good discussion.
I think the rank reset was up to Nill on this one and I'd have to agree that it was necessary to do it. Even before I was staff, I noticed that the build quality of Builder ranks was somewhat subpar and sketchy. When 2.0 came in, some Player ranks would show me the build that got them the Builder rank before and I'd notice that some look pretty good, but others would surprise me because their build should have never passed, in my opinion. I'd think to myself "You got Builder with that?"

I'll just repost what I posted to staff about why Player ranks shouldn't get WorldEdit:
WorldEdit is a great tool to have and I understand the frustration that the players are experiencing when they say that they want to use it for their build but they can't. But at the same time, I just want to tell them to stop whinging and build something because you really don't need WorldEdit to build something decent.

I'm mostly against Player ranked people from having WorldEdit because of a few points:
  • WorldEdit should be an incentive for getting the Builder rank -- What do you get with Builder now? WorldEdit, two plots and the use of Toolbelt? If you give WE to Player ranks then Builder doesn't seem as interesting except for the shiny rank name.
  • Some people forget to incorporate details when they primarily use WE to make a build.
  • New players -- They come on. Get a plot. Then create a massive WE that covers their whole plot and lags/crashes the server.
  • I've even seen a plot that had large cobweb spheres and another plot with tnt walls in it -- by large, I mean 50+ block radius.
  • Edited out this last point
Ever since 2.0 and the new building requirements -- plus the Player ranks not having WorldEdit (because it was bugged?)-- The building quality that I've seen from Players that rank up to Builder has gone up. Most Players, since they don't have WE to make their build seem large as if they've done a lot of work, are now focusing on interior and exterior details which makes their builds look ten times better than before.

Cons:
Because players can't use WE, the amount of people playing Buildbox is decreasing, simply because new and returning players feel it's useless to go through the now extremely intensified effort to get to Builder just so they can use WE, tp, and clear their plots.
Well, I've seen a good amount of Builders on the server now, so It doesn't seem like they find it "useless" to go through the "extremely intensified effort" of getting Builder.

I dislike the large amounts of resets that have been performed on the builder rank. One reset should of been enough but since the start of BuildBox we have gone through I believe three or four. Each time new standards were set in place and each time we had to reset again because we felt quality was not high enough. Though I am not a builder I have heard so many complaints about this people who have had to re-earn builder 1-3 times despite completely deserving the rank.

I certanly hope the BB 2.0 rank reset is the last one because right now if feels like a every half a year or year thing. It also seems rather unprofessional and players dislike it.

Little bit of a rant, but it is one of the things I dislike about BuildBox (along with the lack there of an Engineer rank). As for the new regulations on WE those make complete sense although I'm sure it frustrates some I understand, being a previous Build Op, how annoying it can be to have a guest login and in 5 mins cause 30 mins of cleam up for the ops.
The Builder rank resets do seem to cause an uproar, but it has to be expected. Were they necessary? Maybe. But sometimes it's just good to start off with a clean slate, so to speak. I think that I've seen two Builder rank resets, but I didn't have to worry about them because they kept AdvBuilder+ ranks alone. Hopefully rank resets won't happen intentionally in the future, but you never know. Maybe the future staff will just have to reset a player's rank individually? Perhaps there would be a Builder review to see if Builders are actually builder worthy? Who knows?

TL;DR
Honestly, this goes to any Player rank that has complained about not being able to use WorldEdit -- You really don't need WorldEdit to build something amazing. So quit whinging and build something. I'm sure that it will take more time to build, but it will give you time to show off your building skills and style. WorldEdit is just a tool to help you amplify your building skills. And if you don't know how to build, then why should you even use WorldEdit in the first place?
 

nitasu987

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If you want my honest opinion....

Those of you who read this and remember me will know that I used to spend TONS of time on BB. I've applied for ADVBuilder twice (both with builds that I worked extremely hard on) and got denied twice, and honestly while I respect everyone's decision, I noticed that in my opinion people with builds/maturity worse than mine had been accepted eagerly. I stopped playing less and less because I felt discouraged, like I would never be as good as awesome builders like Kuro and Jub and MikeTang. Also, I feel that the lack of a decent terrain world (i.e. a custom map like we had earlier) stinks. I think that BB should be for people like me who genuinely want to enjoy and learn how to build more interesting and exciting builds, and instead of staff fooling around and not being particularly nice/helpful as I've noticed at various points during my playtime, they should try to engage with players and try to assist and give helpful pointers. (I haven't been on too recently so if you guys do do this then :D)



So yeah, that's my opinion. I WANT to go back on BB and hopefully reach my goal of being an ADV, but we'll see.
 

Psycho

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I think that BB should be for people like me who genuinely want to enjoy and learn how to build more interesting and exciting builds, and instead of staff fooling around and not being particularly nice/helpful as I've noticed at various points during my playtime, they should try to engage with players and try to assist and give helpful pointers. (I haven't been on too recently so if you guys do do this then :D)
I haven't seen you around much and I did read that side-note, but I'm certain that the Buildbox staff are capable of helping players and are an exceptional bunch of awesome people. :cool:
 

JtTorso

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If you are a remotely seasoned builder, getting the rank is not particularly that hard, it's something I've done over a multitude of times on every Build server we have had. The rank is really just a gateway between player and AdvBuilder, and for some who cannot, have not, or chosen not to achieve AdvBuilder it's a kind of purgatory with some advantages, have this many resets been necessary? It's questionable, but if the staff (Who are made up of experienced builders) feel that the bulk of players who have been granted it are not quite up to their expectations then it should be expected that they chose to revisit what constitutes a builder. Getting builder should feel like an achievement, but if everyone with the bare minimum capabilities gets Builder then it doesn't really amount to much, we should have more players trying to become experienced builders as opposed to builders who struggle to fit the mold.
 

Prizyms

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maturity worse than mine
This is not nearly as relevant as building skill.

Regardless, when I was suggesting the various elements of the BuildBox relaunch, Nillbug and I both decided that these would be necessary in order to encourage better building. Let's face it - Builder was extremely easy to get on the last iteration of the server, and the general quality of building was very low.
 
Y

YouWould

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I definitely agree with Prizyms. It should definitely take more than 30 Mins. to make a good Builder build, and the new ones are quality.
 
Y

YouWould

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katman46 said:
it's already happened and it wont be undone,
Click to expand...
so what exactly is the point of this besides to cause drama and controversy?
The point is a good debate.
 

Kordra

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I respect everyone's opinion, and while this is a slippery topic, I'd just like to say I don't really think it was necessary. And no offense to the operators of BB, you guys are the best, but in all honesty, it was kind of dumb. I know you care more about the quality of the build, and don't get me wrong, I love quality over quantity any day.. But stripping builders of their well-earned ranks and permissions was not only un-fair, but seemingly purposeless.

From what I could gather, you took W.E. away so that builders produce more quality builds, that require effort. And while this makes sense, you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot all the while. Because you're asking us to produce these quality builds, but you're taking our tools away. So of course we can build a house, or a castle or a funny looking face, but nobody wants to dedicate the time and effort to build what is expected to earn builder by hand. Because by building said house, castle or funny face, it won't matter because it's not "builder worthy", even though we did the best with what we are given, which is nothing. By taking away W.E. you're making BB more tedious then fun in my opinion.

Like I said, I respect everyone's opinion and I didn't write this to put anyone down; because I have massive respect for all of BB operators. I'm just voicing my thoughts somewhere I can be heard. Thanks for reading.
 

CloudBryan9

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(Big wall of text)
(EDIT: I accidentally didn't fully read the poll. So I chose the wrong answer, sorry for any confusion it might have caused. I would have chosen: Not necessarily...)

First off I will say that I have already gotten the Builder rank a while ago.

Now on topic, I talked with rawr for a quite amount of time in the past week about the new builder standard. There were a few things that should in my opinion should be looked at and possibly fixed. I do think that the rank requirements are way too high right now, especially with the removal of WE. I have also noticed that those in this thread, who say that the builder rank level is fine, are adv+ (just an interesting point).


Here are the issues:

1) I have noticed a huge amount of inconsistency between the standards of the ops. Some ops have a build standard that is close to an adv level build and others are much easier.

2) The build help plot is practically next to useless. Yes, I said “next to useless”. Even if you pass all the examples with flying colors, you are not guaranteed what so ever that you will get builder.
It’s like studying for the SAT from the official study guide. And let’s say you scored perfectly (100%) on the study guides’ practice tests. And if you had done exactly the same on the actual test, you would have only gotten a 50%. If that was the case, what use would the study guide be?

3) Ops never seem to bother to ask about the build. They never ask if you were following a theme for the build (which might restrict blocks). Or what is the story behind the build (if there is one).

4) Ops seem to look at the overall build, the landscape, and interior design. I am not saying this is a bad thing. The problem is that ops seem to expect all 3 to exist. To be completely honest, some people when they are making a build could care less about the landscape or if they add anything to the interior. Especially since terraforming and interior decorating aren't what is getting you builder.

5) Ops seem to judge builds on their own tastes. Not based off technique.


Now that I have brought up the problems let see how we could fix it.

1) Have multiple bare minimum builder builds on a staff only world. That way, operators would be on the same page on what is acceptable and what is not. Or make a staff thread with detailed instructions/examples. We need to make the inconsistency gap much, much smaller.

2) The build help plot needs to be redone or guarantee the builder rank if you pass all the elements. If you do redo the plot, make sure you do guarantee the builder rank if the player passes all the redone elements. Maybe add a bare minimum build to the plot? (If players copy it, deny them the rank of builder.)
Also if ops show players builder level builds on other plots make sure you show them the barely passing builder builds and the small builds. Right now players seem think that they are expected to make half plot builds to have a smug of a hope to get builder (Because ALL the examples that are shown to them are huge.)

3) When an operator arrives to look at a build, they should ask questions about it. Does it have a theme (is it based of a historical time period, is it from a game/movie, or is it just from the imagination?), is there a specific reason why a certain block was used, is there a story behind the build (there might not be any). Only after an op sees and understands the build as the player does, that is when the op could make a well informed decision.

4) This is the one issue that is and isn’t a problem. Ops tend to forget the players who are working on builder builds are not thinking on what would get them adv. Also nothing in the build help plot tells you about terraforming. Also why are we making adding furniture to builds a requirement to get builder? I can understand if a person wants to add furniture to his/her build. But this should NOT be a builder passing requirement. (Yes there are arguments for both positions, sometimes builds need interior detail. But the ops’ vision of improvement should not be that of furniture.)

5) Lastly, the builder rank shouldn't be totally based off the personal tastes of the op. (My build was at first denied because the op didn’t like my nether brick roof and nothing else was wrong.) It took me 10 min talking to that op to get him to finally realize that the beyond the fact that I used nether brick for the roof, that the design of the roof and the rest of the build surpassed the requirement for builder. (When I first built it, it was pre acacia wood update. When I submitted it back then, Damer (when he was director) said it was adv. quality). So, how on earth is something that was adv quality, is now a barely pass? If this is the case, then the requirements for builder are insane.
Shouldn’t the builder rank be based off technique and/or the looks? Shouldn’t ops look at the layering of blocks, the use of curves and bends, and looking for “less is more”? If a build doesn’t look that great, but is extremely technical. It should get builder.

I am not saying this just out of my frustration, but for the other players. I am certain we have lost countless players due to the frustration of the builder rank being almost totally out of reach. I want to see BB to succeed greatly; but right now there are issues that need to be ironed out.

TL;DR There needs to be more refinement, more consistency, and more clarity of the Builder requirements.
 

Psycho

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1) I have noticed a huge amount of inconsistency between the standards of the ops. Some ops have a build standard that is close to an adv level build and others are much easier.
Well, one thing that you should know is that a few of the Ops were originally AdvBuilders who still come up with top notch builds. So it's a given that their standards may be high and that they would most likely expect a decent build from the players that they review. I'm sure that it'd be hard to tell them to lower their expectations when they review a player's build -- but honestly, why should they?

2) The build help plot is practically next to useless. Yes, I said “next to useless”. Even if you pass all the examples with flying colors, you are not guaranteed what so ever that you will get builder.
Useless? Maybe to you. But there have been instances of when players needed help on HOW to build and that tutorial, albeit small, possibly helped them out. That BuildingHelp tutorial was started by a few of the Ops. We took examples from a previous version of the "Aesthetic Requirements for Builder" thread and applied mini-tutorials for it in that plot. It might not set the best example for what's required for Builder ranks because of how small the examples are -- but the reason why they're small, is because we worried that players would copy the build and it also allows players to use their imagination.

3) Ops never seem to bother to ask about the build. They never ask if you were following a theme for the build (which might restrict blocks). Or what is the story behind the build (if there is one).
I'm sure that we could start asking players the who, what, and why when we review their builds. It may be tedious, but hopefully players don't respond with "Just because."

4) Ops seem to look at the overall build, the landscape, and interior design. I am not saying this is a bad thing. The problem is that ops seem to expect all 3 to exist. To be completely honest, some people when they are making a build could care less about the landscape or if they add anything to the interior. Especially since terraforming and interior decorating aren't what is getting you builder.
I confess. I expect all three of these things if I ever look at a player's build. And of course, I've heard the "I'm not great at interiors" excuse a bunch of times -- I also hate doing it. But if your build has rooms and there's nothing in them, then what do you expect us to ask for? If a player incorporates a landscape and interior design to their build, then it shows us that you understand what ties a build together and that you care about the details. Think about it -- a build WITHOUT an interior/landscape VS. the same build WITH an interior/landscape. Which would look better? It's all in the details.

5) Ops seem to judge builds on their own tastes. Not based off technique.
Well, I'm certain that we all look for the basic depth, detail, and block variation (and anything else in between). That's a given. And of course we would have to judge builds based on aesthetics as well. Maybe the use of nether brick on your roof clashed with the build and didn't make any sense to that Op? Everyone will have their own type of aesthetics, so it's hard not to judge the looks of a build.


I'm glad that you came up with solutions to fix the issues that you found and I think that they warrant a response which I can't seem to come up with right now (sorry!) -- but hopefully the staff BBPrem can respond and consider your solutions. Thanks!
 
  • Agree
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Although this doesn't matter that much, one of the things I hated about being a player was that the rank was grey. It just felt dull and boring. I'm not sure if anyone else thinks this but I think it would be better if it was a less dull colour like [[BCOLOR=#ffffff]Player] [/BCOLOR][BCOLOR=#339966][BCOLOR=#ffffff]or something.[/BCOLOR][/BCOLOR]

[BCOLOR=#339966][BCOLOR=#ffffff]Edit: (Well maybe not so much like the Builder colour)[/BCOLOR][/BCOLOR]
 

Ltin

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Alright, I have something to say, but first, I must ask, Why is the quality of builds on the server so important? Who are you trying to impress? The President? The Pope? or Bob from accounting?
The answer is Bob.
 
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Ltin said:
Alright, I have something to say, but first, I must ask, Why is the quality of builds on the server so important.
Well the rank is called Builder so you should get it for building something decent but since all the players are complaining about having no WE and the main problem with giving it to them is that they might go and crash the server maybe a "Trusted Player" rank could be added that allows to player to have WE if they are deemed trustworthy enough so they won't crash the server and also could help them on their way to Builder.
 

Jivvi

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I don't know, to be honest. Why IS building quality so important on a creative building server?
It's probably due to the pneumatic function of the polymolecular discharge that occurs when the periwinkle neocortex of the hyperion cerebellum comblasturates with the semipotent structuralised visualisation of the grandiose blisphemery.
 

Ltin

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It's probably due to the pneumatic function of the polymolecular discharge that occurs when the periwinkle neocortex of the hyperion cerebellum comblasturates with the semipotent structuralised visualisation of the grandiose blisphemery.
This is what I mean. Jivvi clearly has no idea what he's talking about,
Why impress him?